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IRC Meetups/2005/June/June01RawLog

14:04:47 <relle> Okay, let's rock.
14:04:55 <relle> Start us up photomacie
14:05:03 <jonabad> fyi, i won't be here the whole time, someone else will have to secretary it up
14:05:07 <photomac> http://codex.wordpress.org/IRC_Meetups#2005-06-01
14:05:15 <photomac> Let's start in the beginning
14:05:20 <photomac> Extend Themes page
14:05:25 <photomac> thoughts?
14:05:28 <mdawaffe> (is anyone logging besides jonabad ?)
14:05:32 <mdawaffe> (I'm not)
14:05:40 <Pplproof> I am.
14:05:43 <relle> I'm not.
14:05:52 <Firas> well, pplproof can post the log
14:05:55 <relle> okay.
14:05:55 <Pplproof> I think I'll hold them hostage. :)
14:05:55 <photomac> Pplproof: Can you post the logs to the codex?
14:05:59 <Pplproof> Sure. :)
14:06:00 <Firas> who's doing the transcription?
14:06:07 <Firas> (minutes)
14:06:08 <mdawaffe> themes - how many will be up, what criteria?
14:06:12 <jonabad> i can do that tonight when i catch up with the dealy
14:06:18 <Firas> thanks jonabad
14:06:23 <photomac> okay that's settled
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14:06:34 <photomac> mdawaffe: Just a few
14:06:49 <mdawaffe> <10 ?
14:06:49 <photomac> the criteria is currently subjective
14:06:53 <photomac> yes
14:06:54 <jonabad> is it meant as a showcase and will there be a bigger directory later?
14:07:10 <relle> Is the criteria "written"?
14:07:16 <photomac> there may be a bigger directory later, but the biggest complaint I've been hearing from users is there are "too many to choose from"
14:07:30 <photomac> and, let's be honest, some of the themes in the directories like Alex's are really horrible
14:07:34 <relle> Grouping into columns and such helps.
14:07:37 <alexsmith> Oi, watch it.
14:07:42 <alexsmith> Oh, you meant Alex King, sorry 8)
14:07:45 <mdawaffe> I imagine the criteria will always be subjective, who's in charge? matt, mike?
14:07:53 <Pplproof> photomac: Isn't that why the WRC got started in the first place? The trouble was finding people to help run it...
14:08:04 <jonabad> photomac, too many themes you mean?
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14:08:14 <photomac> I think things like WRC and Alex's site will continue to rock on, and they should
14:08:22 <photomac> I heard about another site coming along that'll do the same thing
14:08:32 <photomac> jonabad: Yes, too many themes
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14:08:37 <Pplproof> photomac: Integrating something similar to that directly into the WP site though?
14:08:41 * Podz grabs a chair
14:08:43 <mdawaffe> (hey Podz!)
14:08:51 <photomac> but I think we can look at downloads and popularity and quality of code and determine which ones we want to take under our wing
14:08:58 <photomac> the themes that are featured aren't just a pat on the back
14:09:00 <Pplproof> I completely agree with ONE helpful resource instead of 50 semi-helpful ones...
14:09:12 <Pplproof> And yes, noone's running a theme charity.
14:09:13 <photomac> Mike and I have been actively improved the code in theme
14:09:18 --- westi|gone is now known as westi
14:09:19 <photomac> to bring them up to WP standards
14:09:28 <photomac> *them
14:09:29 * westi arrives a little late
14:09:59 <photomac> this should also cut down on theme-related support requests
14:10:05 <photomac> or at least step the tide a little
14:10:08 <photomac> *stem
14:10:09 <photomac> not step
14:10:22 <mdawaffe> photomac: so it's you an mike looking for good themes, cleaning them up and hosting them on extend?
14:10:33 <mdawaffe> what's the lifetime of a theme up there, will they cycle?
14:10:42 <photomac> officially what we're doing is simply cleaning them up and putting them in the wp-themes.org repository
14:10:46 <mdawaffe> ah
14:10:53 <photomac> of all the themes in the repository, there's a flag in the database that says "featured"
14:10:59 <photomac> those show up on /extend/themes
14:11:00 <mdawaffe> ok - I was conflating extend and the rep
14:11:10 <photomac> well they're closely tied together
14:11:10 <mdawaffe> gotcha
14:11:11 <jonabad> is this the road towards something like mozilla extensions?
14:11:12 <relle> If you could take notes of what consistently needs cleaning, this would be good for the Codex Theme info. HINT HINT.
14:11:22 <Firas> it's already there
14:11:24 <photomac> obviously we would never want to point users towards either of the repositories, they're horribly unfriendly
14:11:29 <Pplproof> No kidding.
14:11:35 <mdawaffe> photomac: :)
14:11:49 <Pplproof> Great for people who already know their way around the community, but sucks for those who don't...
14:11:56 <photomac> the new download system is also in place for plugins now
14:12:11 <mdawaffe> photomac: with tag support?
14:12:13 <photomac> so plugin authors who don't want to host ZIPs can stop pointing directly at the repository and instead point to the generated ZIP files
14:12:19 <photomac> mdawaffe: not yet
14:12:21 <mdawaffe> k
14:12:33 <photomac> but that should help with the headers already sent support
14:12:39 <photomac> where people copy and paste plugins
14:12:50 <photomac> and have trailing or leading whitespace
14:13:10 <relle> any word yet on plugin manager getting fixed up?
14:13:12 <relle> I sure miss it.
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14:14:08 <photomac> plugin manager like functionality will be in WP someday
14:14:14 <Firas> drdave's on extended hiatus, someone will have to look into making it friendlier etc
14:14:17 <photomac> but the plugin manager as it stands would be a support nightmare
14:14:18 <relle> WOW~
14:14:38 <photomac> so when we get there we'll need a pure-PHP way of doing it that works across most hosts
14:14:44 <photomac> and on windows
14:14:53 <relle> So is the extend/themes ready to promote yet?
14:15:06 <photomac> I dunno, what do you guys think?
14:15:13 <relle> Post link again.
14:15:15 <mdawaffe> those 30px on the right could get removed, and I hear you're working on a well defined URI for each theme
14:15:28 <photomac> http://wordpress.org/extend/themes/
14:15:42 <photomac> mdawaffe: the 30px on the side is by design
14:15:52 <mdawaffe> ah - to make people realize they can scroll?
14:16:00 <photomac> and yes eventually there will be a theme "home page" for each theme on WP.org
14:16:04 <relle> It's still in that iframe icky thing. Not accessible. And not user friendly. Not that I have an opinion on this, you know.
14:16:05 <photomac> mdawaffe: exactly
14:16:08 <Podz> I'd have that arrow as a left/right too .. top or bottom to scroll with
14:16:09 <mdawaffe> URI: as in go to a uri and it scrolls to the right place - does it do this yet, I can't tell
14:16:28 <photomac> Podz: I want to do a left/right arrow but I can't figure out the JS yet
14:16:44 <Firas> relle: isn't it a div
14:16:44 <Podz> :)
14:16:46 * Firas checks
14:16:46 <relle> Honestly, why the obsession with the iframe?
14:16:47 <photomac> mdawaffe: not yet, the code someone sent for that to the list doesn't work
14:17:14 <photomac> relle: the iframe makes it 10x easier, why is it inaccessible?
14:17:15 <mdawaffe> ok - that's out of my JS league
14:17:19 <photomac> with JS turned off the links still work
14:17:26 <photomac> with frames turned off the links still work
14:17:31 <relle> screen readers don't handle iframes well. And search engines don
14:17:37 <relle> don't do them.
14:18:09 <jonabad> i think the iframe is an acceptable compromise since this is just a museum piece
14:18:10 <photomac> we're not trying to get anything inside the frame into search engines, so it doesn't matter
14:18:18 <relle> I had to look around before I figured out that there was more, and it just doesn't feel easy to use.
14:18:37 <photomac> that was a major concern of mine
14:18:37 <relle> Museum piece and now showcase....?
14:18:43 <photomac> so I've been watching the stats
14:19:02 <photomac> if people can't find themes other than the first one, it's useless!
14:19:07 <mdawaffe> my only beef with the scrolling is that it takes over when I scroll vertically down the page
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14:19:13 <masq|lappy> anyone with a screen reader doesn't particularly need to be viewing themes anyways
14:19:34 <Podz> ^^ ?
14:19:36 <relle> Not true. Many use all kinds of different screen readers and visibility enhancers and they can still "see".
14:19:43 <Firas> true, but it would be rather l337 to clone it as an in-page div
14:19:49 <photomac> but the top two most downloaded themes right now are blix and ocadia, which means people are scrolling
14:20:00 <relle> Still, I've said my bit. I don't like the presentation. I want to get on a page, scroll with my wheel and SEE it.
14:20:33 <relle> Scrolling a little down, looking for the scroll bar, then moving to it and scrolling, too many things to do when I can not move my hand and live my life on the mouse wheel.
14:20:50 <photomac> alright
14:20:59 <photomac> we may need to abridge the agenda for today, I have another meeting at 3
14:21:21 <photomac> what are the most important thinsg from the agenda we need to cover?
14:21:27 <relle> Codex please.
14:21:45 <jonabad> 1.6 status
14:21:50 <relle> But first, can we make extend/themes public?
14:21:54 <relle> Are you ready for it?
14:22:01 <photomac> relle: it's linked in the top-level navigation
14:22:06 <jonabad> i've been talking about it already
14:22:12 <photomac> there have been > 2000 downloads already
14:22:17 <relle> Okay.
14:22:34 <Firas> " Forums: Your WordPress - in or out?"
14:22:42 <mdawaffe> out: http://bbpress.automattic.com/ticket/65
14:22:46 <jonabad> i thought it was out last week
14:22:53 <relle> Not.
14:23:08 <photomac> I'll apply mdawaffe's patch and that should fix it
14:23:13 <Firas> " Webtoolscollection's Plugin Contest - status?" --> i don't think there's anything to report here right?
14:23:33 <jonabad> the status is its neat
14:24:05 <Firas> " WordPress Resource Center and Theme Viewer - status?"
14:24:24 <Firas> i think they got hosting via matt and are set right?
14:24:36 <photomac> yep, I'm hosting them and it seems to be trucking along
14:24:46 <Firas> " Wiki Working Group - new mailing list - status and info? What is this?"
14:25:05 <relle> Is this a Codex Wiki thing?
14:25:35 <masq|lappy> new mailing list? for the codex? we already have a docs mailing list...
14:25:44 <photomac> haven't set up the WikiWG mailing list yet, I think that should wait for now
14:25:50 <relle> What is it?
14:25:57 <mdawaffe> not for docs - for improving mediawiki
14:26:00 <photomac> masq|lappy: it's for wiki technology discussion, not docs
14:26:03 <relle> Oh.
14:26:04 <Firas> masq|lappy: i think he means more of a dev project thing than for writing
14:26:08 <relle> Okay. NEXT.
14:26:14 <Firas> " WordPress Meetup Groups - Is there a "list" for the groups yet? Lorelle 14:20, 31 May 2005 (UTC)"
14:26:34 <photomac> I saw a list on someone's user page, I think MichaelH
14:26:46 <relle> Nope that's research for article.
14:27:04 <relle> Can we start one on the codex?
14:27:13 <relle> So at least if people have an active group, we can provide a link?
14:27:21 <photomac> Most definitely
14:27:24 <relle> If there isn't one...
14:27:25 <relle> ?
14:27:52 <relle> I guess not.
14:27:57 <Firas> then invite them to join a couple friends in the area and put a link in?
14:28:01 <relle> So I'll start a list.
14:28:37 <relle> Codex? Now?
14:28:40 <Firas> " New Look in process for Codex front page"
14:28:45 <relle> The following is NOT about the "style" or
14:28:46 <relle> "look" of the Codex but about the way
14:28:46 <relle> information is provided to the user.
14:28:58 <relle> Over the past...months, we've been working
14:28:59 <relle> on changing the look of the front page of the
14:28:59 <relle> Codex. It's been a slow process, so we don't
14:28:59 <relle> upset anyone, but now that we have a lot
14:28:59 <relle> more documentation, a better framework, and
14:29:02 <relle> it needs a drastic new "face". Remember,
14:29:04 <relle> I'm not talking "skin" but structure of
14:29:06 <relle> information.
14:29:14 <relle> There are two versions, at the top and bottom
14:29:14 <relle> of the page:
14:29:14 <relle> http://codex.wordpress.org/User:Lorelle/New_
14:29:14 <relle> Look
14:29:23 <relle> What is going on with my chat????
14:29:27 <relle> Sorry about that.
14:29:35 <mdawaffe> http://codex.wordpress.org/User:Lorelle/New_Look
14:29:45 <relle> http://codex.wordpress.org/User:Lorelle/New_Look
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14:29:50 <relle> That is so odd.
14:29:54 <photomac> hmm
14:30:07 <relle> Two versions: vote 1 on top or 2 on bottom.
14:30:12 <photomac> this is looking a lot better
14:30:16 <Firas> me like
14:30:34 <tunicwriter> It's extremely b0rked in Safari 1.2.2
14:30:58 <relle> Can you send me screen shot via my user page, tunicwriter User:Lorelle
14:30:59 <mdawaffe> how bout 3 col for about (to make it as small as poss) and 2 col for the rest (to make it easy to find things)
14:31:03 <photomac> I'm not sure if most people will go to the codex looking for information "about wordpress"
14:31:09 <photomac> that should probably be further down
14:31:20 <relle> Why not?
14:31:21 <mdawaffe> photomac: that's the seed for my suggestion
14:31:31 <relle> The order is easily changed.
14:31:36 <photomac> wordpress version history? who cares? we should put the great lesson content and help FAQs up front I think
14:31:37 <relle> I'm going for the general look.
14:31:41 <photomac> my $.02
14:31:59 <photomac> oh okay
14:32:03 <mdawaffe> photomac: +$.02
14:32:04 * Podz votes 2
14:32:13 * westi votes 2
14:32:13 <photomac> I think the general look is very good, much less cluttered than the current
14:32:26 <Firas> " Codex Cleanup Date Announced Lorelle 20:00, 26 May 2005 (UTC)"
14:32:34 <Podz> relle:: brilliant work !
14:32:36 <relle> So is 2 the winner?
14:32:37 <photomac> was that unanimous?
14:32:51 <Firas> yeah, seems to be
14:32:55 <relle> It borks when viewed on a narrow or low screen resolution.
14:32:57 <mdawaffe> do people find 3 col hard to scan?
14:32:58 <relle> But I'll keep working on it.
14:33:10 <mdawaffe> (you can say "no")
14:33:27 <Podz> no - compared to what is there now :)
14:33:38 <mdawaffe> good enough for me :)
14:33:52 <photomac> so let's say we're definitely going with one of these new looks, probably #2 if the browser issues can be worked out
14:33:58 <Pplproof> Personally, I find the top one a little more readable.
14:34:05 <Pplproof> But moving on.
14:34:08 <relle> Okay. Codex Cleanup.
14:34:26 <relle> You have a choice. The 3rd or last week of June.
14:34:29 <relle> Vote fast.
14:34:33 <relle> 3 or 4
14:34:38 <photomac> 4
14:34:41 <masq|lappy> 4
14:35:00 <Podz> 4
14:35:14 <relle> Okay,....going going...
14:35:17 <mdawaffe> i'd call that a quorum
14:35:19 <relle> gone.
14:35:21 <relle> 4 it is.
14:35:21 <Firas> "On the Mailing_Lists, Hackers are separate from Developers, yet it says that the hackers list is the developers mailing list now. Can we consolidate and clear this up? Or are hackers and developers separate?"
14:35:27 <mdawaffe> ditch the dev section
14:35:35 <relle> All developers are hackers?
14:35:37 <Firas> the developers are people with commit access i think?
14:35:39 <mdawaffe> tweak hackers to say dev input is taken from hackers list
14:35:49 <Firas> yeah, the devs list part isn't needed in the codex
14:35:59 <photomac> the hackers list is the developers list
14:36:00 <mdawaffe> no one needs to know the existence of a private dev list except matt and whomever
14:36:09 <Firas> http://codex.wordpress.org/Mailing_Lists
14:36:10 <relle> Okay, someone is going to have to help us clean that up.
14:36:20 <Firas> we mean this part: http://codex.wordpress.org/Mailing_Lists#Developers
14:36:44 <photomac> oh, yeah that can probably be removed, it sounds exclusionary
14:36:54 * Firas is ready to axe it
14:37:02 <relle> Thanks.
14:37:03 <Firas> speak now?
14:37:05 <Firas> ok
14:37:14 <relle> As for holes in documentation: get me or carthik a list.
14:37:44 <relle> FAQ: We're working hard on a new FAQ layout in the Codex, and because of time constraints, I'll skip to the point and if anyone wants to see it, talk to me after matt leaves.
14:38:01 <relle> photomatt: by default, the TOC floats to the right.
14:38:08 <relle> We need to force it to the left for the FAQs.
14:38:14 <relle> ONLY YOU HAVE THE POWER.
14:38:27 <relle> Can we get together another time and figure this out?
14:38:39 * mdawaffe thinks about registering codexultimatepower.net
14:38:42 <photomac> what's the matter with the TOC on the right?
14:38:59 <photomac> yes we can meet later
14:39:01 <relle> We're using the headings for the questions and they are LONG and squish everything.
14:39:19 <photomac> relle: it might be best to disable the TOC for that page
14:39:39 <relle> We've tried all sorts of things and this is what works BEST for what we want to do.
14:39:44 * Firas dimunitively notes that codex formatting issues are best left for the docs list or something
14:39:47 <photomac> okay
14:39:49 <relle> I got a bunch of folks working their butts on off these.
14:39:58 <relle> I just watch and help when I can.
14:40:01 <relle> This is their request.
14:40:24 <photomac> ANNOUNCEMENT: Your WordPress should no longer be on the front page
14:40:24 <relle> Okay, Codex Tasks is being updated. Please check in and do what you can. We are working hard to get as much done before real summer kicks in.
14:40:30 <relle> THANK YOU.
14:40:45 <photomac> thank mdawaffe :)
14:40:50 <mdawaffe> sure
14:41:03 <Podz> thanks matt!
14:41:20 * mdawaffe realizes that was the imperative :)
14:41:41 <relle> As for having separate codex discussions, we do all the time. We just need photomatt's and your permission for a few things. when these are settled, codex will die back in the discussions.
14:41:58 <photomac> alright
14:42:03 <photomac> 20 minutes before I have to go
14:42:37 <relle> We can skip forum stuff, as they are things to fix, and get to development.
14:43:28 <relle> " 1.5.2 or 1.6 (1.6 goals and suggestions) - status"
14:44:24 <photomac> one thing I think is interesting about that page
14:44:25 <relle> anyone?
14:44:34 <photomac> is the feature requests that have responses that link to plugins
14:44:48 <photomac> okay, blue sky here's what I'd love to have
14:45:00 <photomac> a form on WP.org for feature wishes
14:45:10 <photomac> every non-silly wish is public
14:45:21 <photomac> and wishes can be responded to with plugins where appropriate
14:45:37 <mdawaffe> ooh - good idea
14:45:44 <relle> Can that be done on the Requests and Feedback section?
14:45:52 <Podz> wouldn't that become unusable fast ?? "Hey I asked 3 DAYS ago and nothing has been done" sort of junk ?
14:45:57 <photomac> things like " Option to allow PHP in Pages" are never going to happen in the core, but it's something a sizable people want and there is a solution for them
14:46:13 <photomac> Podz: if it was in the forums, I think it would become unusable in the way you describe
14:46:32 <photomac> that's why I'd like to frame it like a wishlist, in your wildest dreams what would you want in WP?
14:46:37 <Podz> true .... I'll just remember never to look at it :)
14:46:44 <Pplproof> Be careful that you don't do what Opera did...
14:46:47 <relle> Maybe a thread in Requests would be better.
14:46:56 <relle> You mean oprah?
14:47:04 <Pplproof> Which is, be more focused on producing marketable features, as opposed to functional ones...
14:47:42 <mdawaffe> Pplproof: this sounds more to me like people submitting req and plugin authors responding rather than a lot of stuff getting into core
14:47:48 <Pplproof> Get what's already bthereworking 100% (or as close to it as possible) first, and then go from there. (IMHO, as always...)
14:47:52 <Podz> but pretty doesn't equal useful all the time ?
14:48:00 <Pplproof> Hmmm. Sorry about that...
14:48:06 <Podz> Pplproof:: agreed. Image uploading !
14:48:25 <Pplproof> Podz: That's where I was going with that...
14:49:00 <Podz> good stuff. I think that bit is either chopped out, or fixed. right now it's a mess
14:49:16 <photomac> I think a wishlist would provide a couple of advantages
14:49:27 <Pplproof> photomac: Nothing wrong with thinking big, don't get me wrong. :)
14:49:32 <photomac> one would be a place for us to say definitely "no" to something
14:49:47 <photomac> second would be to allow us to "schedule" things a few releases in advance
14:49:52 <photomac> better roadmapping
14:50:09 <photomac> in my dream wishlist thing people could also add their logged in "vote" to a wish
14:50:15 <Podz> and maybe plugin authors could use that to address any individual issues ?
14:50:17 <photomac> sort of like 43things.com
14:50:19 <Pplproof> photomac: http://www.neo-modus.com/?page=Weekly&subPage=WhatIs -- Something like this?
14:50:37 <photomac> third plugin authors would be able to gauge interest in things they may work on
14:50:38 <Firas> photomac: like bugzilla votes? that tends to work
14:50:57 <photomac> exactly
14:51:13 <Firas> what's next
14:51:19 <photomac> like with this google code summer thing, what if we had a list of 30 things that 500+ people had voted for we could list out
14:52:09 <photomac> right, moving on
14:52:42 <Pplproof> Why not, Movable Type has the same thing, just not as nicely implemented...
14:52:42 <relle> Project report: OpenID --Firas 06:05, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
14:52:48 <Pplproof> I.E. No actual voting, etc...
14:52:56 <Firas> i crossed that out
14:53:03 <Firas> "Awaiting release of the in-dev PHP Class -firas"
14:53:26 <Firas> i'll try to get access to his source before he feels its 'finished'
14:54:16 <Firas> (questions?)
14:54:31 <photomac> nope, I think we can move on
14:54:38 <photomac> thanks for taking that on Firas
14:54:46 <Firas> sure, i think it's quite exciting
14:54:49 <relle> logo/1.6 date?
14:55:36 <mdawaffe> version 2.7: June 3rd, 2005
14:55:38 <photomac> not set yet
14:56:02 <mdawaffe> i bet matt could wrap it up by then
14:56:07 <relle> YEAH.
14:56:36 <relle> We're just trying to plan the backup week promotion to be before the release.
14:57:40 <mdawaffe> photomac: was there a decision on 1.6 v 1.5.2?
14:57:48 <photomac> not yet
14:58:12 <relle> So let Podz and I know, ball park, when you know so the two things don't interfer.
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14:59:21 <photomac> will do
14:59:23 <relle> thanks.
14:59:37 <relle> Now, you got a meeting to go to. Anything left critical?
15:00:43 <photomac> well if there is
15:00:52 <photomac> I'll be back in #wordpress in an hour, okay?
15:01:09 <photomac> later!
15:01:13 <relle> okay.
15:01:14 <mdawaffe> enjoy
15:01:29 <relle> Well, that went fast.
15:01:47 <Firas> maybe somone should ping the hackers list weekly?
15:02:02 * Firas doesn't care about attendance either way
15:02:04 <relle> Okay, can someone please explain something to me.
15:02:11 <Pplproof> What's up?
15:02:15 <relle> What is the developer's blog?
15:02:23 <Firas> what developer's blog?
15:02:28 --- mdawaffe is now known as mdawaffe|brb
15:02:36 <mdawaffe|brb> http://wordpress.org/development/
15:02:57 <Firas> There's the Development blog right? Basically the official wp news
15:02:58 <relle> Oh, that.
15:03:31 <relle> There's a lot of confusion between developer's blog, developer's mailing list which is now the hacker's mailing list, but there are no hackers doing hacking, only helpers with documention but they are called hackers.....
15:03:41 <relle> I've been asked this more than once.
15:04:58 <Firas> that's interesting, who would've guessed that blurb on the mailinglists page would cause confusion... thanks for asking about it, now we're rid of it
15:05:05 <relle> Thanks.
15:05:13 <relle> Firas: did you fix the mailing list thing?
15:05:21 <Firas> it's gone
15:05:23 <relle> Thank you.
15:05:34 <relle> We also have to check on the Contribute pages. I'll do that.
15:05:39 <relle> Thanks all.


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