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IRC Meetups/2005/June/June15RawLog

Jun 14:01:30 <Podz> <meetup>
Jun 14:01:38 <photomatt> let's get started :)
Jun 14:02:11 <photomatt> we can go longer today
Jun 14:02:19 <Pplproof> I'm logging too, whee...
Jun 14:03:15 <ColdForged> LOL
Jun 14:03:19 <shorty114> rofl
Jun 14:03:34 <photomatt> So let's start with the Wiki WG
Jun 14:03:44 <photomatt> the mailing list was created, discussion on it has started
Jun 14:04:17 <photomatt> 13 people signed up for the list
Jun 14:04:32 <photomatt> we are not able to get the wikipress.com domain
Jun 14:04:43 <mdawaffe> .org?
Jun 14:04:58 <shorty114> .org is parked
Jun 14:05:10 <photomatt> all taken by the same guy, I talked to him
Jun 14:05:19 <photomatt> he's donating them to wikipedia or something
Jun 14:05:25 --> h0bbel (h0bbel@213-187-177-58.dd.nextgentel.com) has joined #wordpress-meetup
Jun 14:05:40 <shorty114> maybe come up with a new name?
Jun 14:05:53 <relle> Is this to replace Codex in the future?
Jun 14:05:56 <shorty114> or wiki.press.com
Jun 14:06:02 <photomatt> well we really only need a name if we're replacing dashiki
Jun 14:06:10 <photomatt> now that dashiki works, there isn't as much reason to
Jun 14:06:11 <relle> Ah.
Jun 14:06:21 <photomatt> shorty114: I think press.com is taken
Jun 14:06:35 --> JDigital (~jdigital@host81-153-146-75.range81-153.btcentralplus.com) has joined #wordpress-meetup
Jun 14:06:44 <carthik> If a blog is a "press", a wiki could be a "board"
Jun 14:06:53 <shorty114> photomatt, comes up to a search/portal page...lemme check whois
Jun 14:06:56 <JDigital> wordboard
Jun 14:07:07 <Pplproof> And this is why engineers don't participate in product naming... ;P
Jun 14:07:09 <relle> If dashiki is working for us, are you still going to go ahead and reinvent the wiki wheel?
Jun 14:07:10 <shorty114> yeah
Jun 14:07:11 --> ||Podz (~Podz@82-71-7-36.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) has joined #wordpress-meetup
Jun 14:07:22 <masq|coding> shorty114: for such a broad domain, the owner would surely want hundreds if not thousands ;-)
Jun 14:07:27 <shorty114> yeah
Jun 14:07:28 <shorty114> :)
Jun 14:07:51 <photomatt> relle: no
Jun 14:08:17 <shorty114> so is that matter settled?
Jun 14:09:05 <photomatt> I think so
Jun 14:09:07 <relle> WordPress Extend Theme Viewer - status?
Jun 14:09:19 <photomatt> the wiki-tech list can focus on making our wiki better within dashiki
Jun 14:09:29 <photomatt> relle: it's running peachy
Jun 14:09:37 <relle> great - just going down the list.
Jun 14:09:50 <relle> Taking firas' place for shoving topics through ;-)
Jun 14:09:56 <masq|coding> photomatt: how about theming the codex? make it fit in with everything else
Jun 14:10:10 <relle> NEXT meeting!
Jun 14:10:18 <photomatt> that's underway, I have a friend working on the new look
Jun 14:10:21 --> Podz__ (~Podz@82-71-7-36.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) has joined #wordpress-meetup
Jun 14:10:23 <relle> Forum Support: Increasing Adsense advice being sought. Article for Codex needed - sign up?
Jun 14:10:31 <relle> We have put it on the list and hopefully someone will sign up for it.
Jun 14:10:41 <photomatt> I maintain that we should just close those threads and direct people at google
Jun 14:10:48 <Podz__> stupid netgear crap
Jun 14:10:51 <Podz__> I agree still
Jun 14:10:52 <relle> The issue is more important than that.
Jun 14:10:53 <photomatt> google is making BILLIONS of dollars from adsense, wth are we provided support?
Jun 14:11:02 <relle> People need to know how to work around ads in WordPress.
Jun 14:11:02 <shorty114> i agree with matt
Jun 14:11:06 <photomatt> google has people better suited
Jun 14:11:15 <relle> I've set the article tone so it addresses all ads, not specifics.
Jun 14:11:21 <Podz__> relle:: there are posts that can be searched for
Jun 14:11:24 <photomatt> yes
Jun 14:11:30 <relle> I know, but we need a writer to put it all together
Jun 14:11:41 <photomatt> I would strongly object to such an article on the codex
Jun 14:11:41 * relle peers at everyone and they turn away with guilty looks.
Jun 14:11:52 <relle> Why? Ads on blogs is a problem?
Jun 14:12:00 <tunicwriter> photomatt: then again, it's also that you make this product, support themes and template making, yet you don't support people putting adsense in when you support plugins on the forums?
Jun 14:12:02 <Podz__> support is.
Jun 14:12:03 <relle> Not targeting Google.
Jun 14:12:06 <mdawaffe> no - but an open source community profiting for google is
Jun 14:12:17 <mdawaffe> (or anyone)
Jun 14:12:21 <Podz__> I would object to anyone's ads. at all.
Jun 14:12:29 <relle> This is not about google, it is about template files and slapping in javascripts and all into the WordPress template files.
Jun 14:12:32 <photomatt> when/if we integrate a way for people to put ads on their blogs, then we'll support that
Jun 14:12:37 <stevecooley> Don't quit your dab, you're saying
Jun 14:12:47 <relle> Not about supporting any advertising per se, just how to get it into your WordPress site.
Jun 14:12:59 <tunicwriter> photomatt: so if someone made a plugin to automate the process, you would support it then?
Jun 14:13:09 <masq|coding> relle: point them at the theme development pages and close the threads is what I say
Jun 14:13:17 <Podz__> the point is that we have WAY more non-wp posts at times. we must cut those down, and it's not like G is hard to find for help is it ?
Jun 14:13:27 <photomatt> tunicwriter: possibly, the two plugins that were submitted to wp-plugins.org for that were spam/porn
Jun 14:14:03 <photomatt> Podz: good point
Jun 14:14:07 <relle> The point is that I've asked for an article that deals with putting ads into your wordpress site, not to promote any advertisers, just to help people know how to work around the various tags.
Jun 14:14:08 <tunicwriter> photomatt: it goes without saying that it would have to be legit... but why only support it when it's a plugin when so many people use adsense on their blogs?
Jun 14:14:10 <masq|coding> putting adsense in is nothing short of copying and pasting some stuff that google gives you, there shouldn't be a need for support other than pointing to theme pages at the codex
Jun 14:14:14 <photomatt> if we put an article about it on the codex, people will expect support for it
Jun 14:14:23 <stevecooley> what about an advertisement network specifically for wordpress bloggers?
Jun 14:14:25 <JDigital> <3 google ads
Jun 14:14:26 <relle> Simple, clearcut and helps all the many, many questions that are asked on the forum, whether we have an article or not.
Jun 14:14:47 <stevecooley> bypass google altogether
Jun 14:14:52 <relle> No, we can aim people from the forum to the article. This is how you include ads, if you need specifics, go see your ad vendor.
Jun 14:14:52 <carthik> Yes, this is one of those things best dealt with by a non-codex site, which does occasional WordPress tips and tricks...
Jun 14:14:53 <JDigital> It should only be a plugin, I think
Jun 14:15:10 <photomatt> also note that google has snubbed WP several times recently
Jun 14:15:11 * Podz__ looks at Carthik :)
Jun 14:15:22 <photomatt> adsense for feeds is a good example
Jun 14:15:33 * mdawaffe shakes fist in air
Jun 14:15:38 <photomatt> heh
Jun 14:15:40 <-- Podz has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
Jun 14:15:41 <stevecooley> so what about taking our audience away from them altogether
Jun 14:15:47 <relle> I'm not talking about highlighting any specific advertiser.
Jun 14:15:48 <Podz__> carthik:: wordlog up for it ?
Jun 14:15:48 <carthik> relle, if you already have a list of questions, that would be a beginning - since i can't see how adding ads is any different from customizing the way (other) content appears on a theme.
Jun 14:15:55 <photomatt> that's a fine goal, but out of scope for this meeting
Jun 14:16:01 <photomatt> and certainly out of scope for the codex
Jun 14:16:15 <stevecooley> maybe we can talk about it more later
Jun 14:16:15 <shorty114> next item
Jun 14:16:18 <stevecooley> ?
Jun 14:16:24 <carthik> Podz__, I am sort of tied up now, but could help with it. Could mail bloggingpro and wtc, you know.
Jun 14:16:25 <shorty114> Forum Support: Alternative forum(s) for non-WP support ?
Jun 14:16:31 <relle> I don't see that adding ads and helping people Hanover about the template tags is any different from adding images or anything else to their site.
Jun 14:16:36 <Podz__> Is there mileage in a Gallery forum ?
Jun 14:16:43 <relle> I need to know if I should take it off the to do list for the Clean up week.
Jun 14:16:47 <Podz__> wp+images forum
Jun 14:17:18 <photomatt> also http://workboxers.com/forum/ is dedicated to that sort of thing
Jun 14:17:26 <photomatt> we can point people there too, I'm sure they'd love the traffic
Jun 14:17:47 <tunicwriter> Or hate you for crashing their server because of bandwidth overload... either or ;P
Jun 14:17:58 <carthik> relle, precisely -- so why does it warrant special attention, the same instructions for adding a custom block of code should do fine. One way to look at it is - that is the least amount of work the person has to put in to earn anything. Enough said.
Jun 14:18:20 <-- ||Podz has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
Jun 14:18:21 <Podz__> carthik:: on the forum is already every question, and every answer
Jun 14:18:21 <shorty114> heh tunicwriter
Jun 14:18:35 <Podz__> there are even answers to the flickering
Jun 14:18:49 <Podz__> users need to work for their adsense $ :)
Jun 14:19:07 <photomatt> I switched wordpress.org from adsense to adbrite, it's been doing pretty well
Jun 14:19:09 <Podz__> and I hate seeing those posts taking places real wp problems should have
Jun 14:19:38 <Podz__> the people who have trouble usually generate VERY long threads
Jun 14:19:39 <tunicwriter> To the user, it is a real WP problem...
Jun 14:19:48 <relle> # Forum: Increased search results ? Paged maybe ?
Jun 14:19:50 <carthik> photomatt, good to know that. Let's root for the underdogs :)
Jun 14:19:54 <Podz__> no - it's a G-ad problem
Jun 14:20:03 <Podz__> they need to redo their help
Jun 14:20:25 <relle> Next: # Forum: Increased search results ? Paged maybe ?
Jun 14:20:49 <photomatt> two things about the search
Jun 14:21:03 <photomatt> I don't think it would hurt to have a global search box
Jun 14:21:11 <photomatt> that searches all of wordpress.org, including the codex
Jun 14:21:19 <photomatt> the google box did that
Jun 14:21:25 <relle> But not pretty.
Jun 14:21:33 <photomatt> they asked us to take it down
Jun 14:21:46 <Podz__> so.. G don't support WP ? :)
Jun 14:21:50 <photomatt> because the search box wasn't their recommended HTML
Jun 14:21:58 <relle> http://guff.szub.net/wordpress/google.html is Kauf's cool search box for forum and codex.
Jun 14:22:04 <relle> *Kaf's
Jun 14:22:16 * mdawaffe points out that a recommendation is just that and shakes fist in air
Jun 14:22:38 <carthik> photomatt, is Divisor etc expensive? ( http://vivisimo.com/ )?
Jun 14:23:11 <photomatt> I don't want to paint G badly, I just think we could find more supportive partners
Jun 14:23:30 <mdawaffe> photomatt: how hard would a bbPress plugin that could search codex and forums at the same time be?
Jun 14:23:32 <photomatt> I mean they have their own blogging service anyway, they don't have a lot of reason to support us
Jun 14:23:49 <photomatt> carthik: I'll look at it
Jun 14:23:50 --> tomhanna (~tomhanna@64.77.223.61) has joined #wordpress-meetup
Jun 14:24:09 <photomatt> so where we stand is... Google has the best site search
Jun 14:24:15 <tunicwriter> You have to think about it from their perspective though... They offer solutions for search boxes on site, to everyone... that's the way they want it done. I'm sure you're not the only one that got asked to take your custom solution down...
Jun 14:24:21 <photomatt> Yahoo's is about the same quality
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Jun 14:24:31 <JDigital> Yahoo uses Google search technology, right?
Jun 14:24:35 <-- her_Aubreyness has quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68a [Firefox 1.0.3/20050414]")
Jun 14:24:44 <photomatt> JDigital: not for a long time now
Jun 14:24:53 <tomhanna> Not anymore.
Jun 14:24:53 <JDigital> oh
Jun 14:25:08 <JDigital> this is what I get for not reading slashdot
Jun 14:25:21 <photomatt> http://search.yahoo.com/search?_adv_prop=web&x=op&ei=UTF-8&va=enable+sending+referrers&va_vt=any&vp_vt=any&vo_vt=any&ve_vt=any&vd=all&vst=on&vs=wordpress.org&vf=all&vm=i&fl=0&n=10
Jun 14:25:57 <photomatt> there are some dupes there, but that's actually our fault
Jun 14:26:02 <Podz__> that looks okay
Jun 14:26:09 <photomatt> the RSS feeds are broken and we don't redirect old URLs to new ones all the time
Jun 14:26:42 <photomatt> I think in the short term, we can start sending people to yahoo search which searches all of wp.org and subdomains (including codex)
Jun 14:27:00 <photomatt> moving forward, I would like to use their API to make it a more integrated experience
Jun 14:27:04 <relle> Will it look like they are still on wordpress.org?
Jun 14:27:12 <relle> k
Jun 14:27:25 <photomatt> their API is much more liberal than google's too
Jun 14:27:52 <relle> Ready for next?
Jun 14:28:04 <Podz__> tomhanna:: we've mentioned Google support on the forums - did you want to mention anything ?
Jun 14:28:08 <Podz__> hang on rele
Jun 14:28:12 <photomatt> I'll chat with mdawaffe about some other things for bbpress later
Jun 14:30:01 <Podz__> tomhanna:: ?
Jun 14:30:02 <tomhanna> Nothing on topic really, other than the idea of setting aside a spot in the forums for advice on integrating non-WP things (like Google products) into WP
Jun 14:30:51 <Podz__> did we agree on a non-wp forum ? maybe that would suffice for what will be increasing issues ?
Jun 14:31:19 <photomatt> existing forums, where possible, have more chance of helping people
Jun 14:31:22 <photomatt> hence the work boxers link above
Jun 14:31:59 <photomatt> let's move on to the next topic then
Jun 14:32:01 <relle> Dates and Times are messed up on the forum. Status?
Jun 14:32:07 <mdawaffe> fixed?
Jun 14:32:17 <photomatt> I'm pretty sure this was fixed a while ago
Jun 14:32:24 <Podz__> looks fine here
Jun 14:32:32 <relle> okay.
Jun 14:32:34 <relle> Plugin Contest - Ends June 15 - status?
Jun 14:32:53 <mdawaffe> ending.
Jun 14:32:55 <mdawaffe> :)
Jun 14:33:06 <relle> How many plugins submitted? Anyone know? For the record?
Jun 14:34:15 <shorty114> ~30 i believe, at least according to blog
Jun 14:34:19 <relle> cool.
Jun 14:34:23 <relle> * Can we have a subchair so meeting can continue with or without Matt to help make team decisions?
Jun 14:34:50 <relle> Is this even possible?
Jun 14:35:17 <-- carthik has quit (Connection timed out)
Jun 14:35:21 <mdawaffe> not to give matt a big head, but it seems not worthwhile without him 'here'
Jun 14:35:56 <mdawaffe> unless it's a very specific question at hand
Jun 14:36:13 <shorty114> yeah i agree
Jun 14:36:18 <photomatt> I suppose next week can be an experiment, I probably can't make it
Jun 14:36:51 <mdawaffe> i suppose we can make recommendations, etc. to be collated and discussed the following week
Jun 14:37:16 <relle> Matt, you still rule the world so you could still have the final say on anything the group comes up with.
Jun 14:37:19 <relle> ;-)
Jun 14:38:03 <photomatt> okay, moving on... ;)
Jun 14:38:14 <photomatt> checked in some really cool stuff for 1.6 this week
Jun 14:38:18 <relle> Which brings up the subject of the keys to the kingdom.
Jun 14:38:35 <relle> If you aren't going to be here next week, and we have the cleanup going, what if the codex or forum goes down again?
Jun 14:38:47 <relle> Who will be monitoring these while you're at the conference?
Jun 14:38:49 <relle> Just curious.
Jun 14:39:09 <photomatt> different people, they are not centrally hosted, it's all distributed
Jun 14:39:25 <photomatt> I get a message on my cell phone if anything goes down
Jun 14:39:44 <mdawaffe> I always thought you had a chip in your head
Jun 14:39:47 <Podz__> do we have someone we can hit with emails ?
Jun 14:39:53 <mdawaffe> cell phones are so passe
Jun 14:40:07 <photomatt> you can contact textdrive if there's anything wrong with wordpress.org
Jun 14:40:21 <Podz__> support@ ?
Jun 14:40:27 <photomatt> I'll also be checking me email, it's not like I'm unplugging
Jun 14:41:57 <photomatt> *my
Jun 14:42:36 <Podz__> so we send to textdrive for the forums .. what about codex ? Does someone else contact you ?
Jun 14:43:14 <photomatt> I get an automated message
Jun 14:43:35 <photomatt> I have SSH on my treo, I can fix most anything from anywhere, or call someone who can
Jun 14:44:00 <relle> Okay, but it would be nice to know there is a backup, just in case you meet up with the wrong side of a passing car.
Jun 14:44:02 <relle> not that that will happen.
Jun 14:44:07 <relle> :-)
Jun 14:44:24 <relle> Hope you have a great time at the conference.
Jun 14:44:25 <photomatt> in the event of a unexpected cessation of my existence, I have a private system set up so everything is handled
Jun 14:44:30 <mdawaffe> or in case someone from google or MT takes you out ;)
Jun 14:44:37 <shorty114> lol
Jun 14:44:40 <photomatt> yep, I better stop talking smack
Jun 14:44:48 <relle> Next: Status of 1.5.2/1.6
Jun 14:44:52 <Podz__> ( can I ask that not a lot gets said about 1.6 ? There WILL be people downloading it and then crying )
Jun 14:45:02 <photomatt> http://flickr.com/photos/laughingsquid/19529411/
Jun 14:45:15 <photomatt> Podz__: I named the version just for you
Jun 14:45:41 <photomatt> 1.6 has a new user system
Jun 14:45:59 <photomatt> which means all extra data about a user is stored in something a lot like custom fields
Jun 14:46:21 <photomatt> to help podz out, let's not blog about 1.6 or hype it outside of these meeting's until it's at least beta
Jun 14:46:34 <photomatt> the posting interface has also been redone
Jun 14:46:40 <photomatt> combined the simple and advanced screens
Jun 14:46:42 <photomatt> made it customizable
Jun 14:46:45 <stevecooley> what's the expected pain level of transition to the new system?
Jun 14:46:48 <photomatt> and added drag-n-drop for all the elements
Jun 14:46:56 <Podz__> it's not to help me out :) I'll be very curt to any and all support requests
Jun 14:47:03 <ColdForged> !
Jun 14:47:07 <photomatt> stevecooley: it's a normal upgrade, just run upgrade.php
Jun 14:47:22 <stevecooley> great, thank you :)
Jun 14:47:24 <Podz__> ColdForged:: I was with 1.5 for a long time
Jun 14:47:43 --> alexsmith (haunteduni@HauntedUnix-student-pdpc.sourcemage) has joined #wordpress-meetup
Jun 14:48:02 <relle> sounds awesome.
Jun 14:48:13 <h0bbel> photomatt: ok. i'll not say anything then.... my site "runs" on 1.6 :)
Jun 14:48:33 <Podz__> It's not the coders that will post for requests - you all know who will
Jun 14:48:58 * mdawaffe amenably resists naming names
Jun 14:49:02 <relle> Anything more on 1.6?
Jun 14:49:09 <photomatt> there's still a lot left to do
Jun 14:49:15 <masq|coding> the coders don't request features, they submit patches ;-)
Jun 14:49:18 <photomatt> epically with the import/export stuff
Jun 14:49:54 <photomatt> when that is done and polished, that's when the release will happen
Jun 14:50:15 <Podz__> the thing is too that the BLT people chi can support must be running it, and if those of us in the forum are not, they will be stuffed and that means they just yell harder
Jun 14:50:37 <relle> Will the release be planned with the release of the new logo and a bunch of fan fare?
Jun 14:50:49 <photomatt> there's always a bunch of fan fare
Jun 14:50:59 <mdawaffe> Podz__: I think there's nothing that can be done about that, at least, I'm not clever enough to think of anything.
Jun 14:51:07 <mdawaffe> support only full releases
Jun 14:51:24 <Podz__> yep - hopefully svn retains it's mystery :)
Jun 14:51:28 <photomatt> the new look for the website will probably launch before 1.6 does
Jun 14:51:30 <mdawaffe> :)
Jun 14:52:01 <relle> and that is about.....when? Give or take or toss relle out the door kinda answer?
Jun 14:52:14 <photomatt> hard to say right now
Jun 14:52:22 <h0bbel> "when it's done (tm)"
Jun 14:52:41 <relle> Still targeting middle of July or later? Just trying to make other plans for forum and codex so it doesn't interfere.
Jun 14:52:51 <Podz__> My money is on 2006 for 1.6 :)
Jun 14:53:03 <Podz__> has a ring to it
Jun 14:53:22 <ColdForged> re 1.6: any room for adding stuff from my "enhanced views" code? Or is it moot point with the existing enhancements?
Jun 14:53:30 <photomatt> it will be later than july
Jun 14:53:40 <relle> Okay. That helps us with our planning. Thanks.
Jun 14:53:42 <JDigital> In 1.6 I would like to see improved Page support.
Jun 14:53:52 <tunicwriter> Podz__: How about 2.6? :P
Jun 14:53:57 <stevecooley> me too, we love pages
Jun 14:54:02 <relle> He's trying for 6-6-6
Jun 14:54:12 <Podz__> WP4.0 - beat MT then :)
Jun 14:54:26 <photomatt> I have no idea what enhanced views are, it'd be best to file a bug describing it
Jun 14:54:33 <ColdForged> (FYI this is what I'm referring to): http://www.coldforged.org/archives/2005/04/20/an-update-on-the-enhanced-views-code/
Jun 14:54:46 <JDigital> You can't do everything with Pages that you can with regular posts
Jun 14:54:46 <ColdForged> relle's been asking for it forever :)
Jun 14:54:49 <relle> Oh, photomatt, it's every serious users dream come true interface for Manage Posts.
Jun 14:55:01 <relle> Sort by category, author, date, everything.
Jun 14:55:05 <relle> DREAM DREAM DREAM.
Jun 14:55:15 <photomatt> sounds nice then :)
Jun 14:55:23 <Podz__> is it ? :)
Jun 14:55:36 <tunicwriter> And lonely little me just wanting "Save and Continue Editing" for pages ;P
Jun 14:55:37 <relle> Spend up interface time with WP by....a LOT. Sorting posts by category is incredible.
Jun 14:55:43 * Podz__ will probably not move from this version
Jun 14:56:17 <photomatt> I think most users will like most the new spam stuff, better post screen, and the easytags system
Jun 14:56:20 <relle> Search the forum and you'll see plenty of my bragging (and others) about this plugin.
Jun 14:56:29 <relle> Cool. Ready for next?
Jun 14:56:33 <photomatt> Podz__: don't make up your mind just yet
Jun 14:57:03 <Podz__> Oh I haven't ... but put wysiwyg in there and I'll remove it :)
Jun 14:57:09 <relle> Me, too.
Jun 14:57:20 <photomatt> I'm not going to put in a wysiwyg I wouldn't use myself
Jun 14:57:20 <ColdForged> heh
Jun 14:57:21 <relle> To a point. Depends.
Jun 14:57:24 <photomatt> and I'm a hardcore hand-coder
Jun 14:57:33 <relle> NEXT: * Development Blog RSS broke
Jun 14:57:35 <relle> me, too.
Jun 14:57:38 <Podz__> And if you have a f***** paper clip I'll trash my site :)
Jun 14:57:44 <mdawaffe> hahaha
Jun 14:57:53 <tunicwriter> Podz__: what about that cute puppy?
Jun 14:57:58 <Podz__> NOOOOOO
Jun 14:57:58 <mdawaffe> Pressy the WordPress guide!
Jun 14:58:04 <Podz__> NOOOO
Jun 14:58:05 <shorty114> haha
Jun 14:58:06 * ColdForged groans
Jun 14:58:09 <stevecooley> Hi, it looks like you're trying to sort your pages! Do you need help with that?
Jun 14:58:13 <relle> Development blog RSS is broken!!
Jun 14:58:17 * ColdForged GROANS
Jun 14:58:19 <relle> Any fixes in sight?
Jun 14:58:44 <shorty114> according to ryanduff (the other day), it's to do with the RSS hooks that were recently added?
Jun 14:58:49 <shorty114> namely rss_head?
Jun 14:59:34 <shorty114> that's what he said - i don't know myself
Jun 14:59:36 <photomatt> I can't find what's causing the prob with the dev blog
Jun 14:59:48 <relle> Dashboard is borked because of it on people's sites and complaints are coming into the forum.
Jun 14:59:50 <photomatt> I'll work on it more this evening
Jun 14:59:52 <relle> and the IRC
Jun 14:59:54 <photomatt> I understand that
Jun 14:59:58 <relle> k
Jun 15:00:09 <relle> NEXT: Backup Week date picked: (1)July 9-16 - (2)July 16-23 - (3)July 23-30
Jun 15:00:21 <shorty114> Backup Week?
Jun 15:00:29 <relle> Podz is working on articles for backing up WP and we're going to have a big celebration and publicity push for this.
Jun 15:00:32 <relle> Connecting forum and codex.
Jun 15:00:43 <relle> Been working on it for ages and we need to pick a week for the publicity push.
Jun 15:01:02 <relle> Will need alp on the forums and publicity on people's blogs that this is WordPress Backup Week.
Jun 15:01:07 <shorty114> uh, sure.
Jun 15:01:07 <relle> *help
Jun 15:01:19 <relle> Podz__: want to say more?
Jun 15:01:27 <Podz__> err......no :)
Jun 15:01:38 <Podz__> I'm writing the guides
Jun 15:01:49 <relle> Okay, voting will happen. Pick a number 1, 2,3 to match dates and that's when it is, with podz as final say.
Jun 15:01:51 <relle> Go
Jun 15:01:53 <relle> vote
Jun 15:01:53 <Podz__> it's a lot trickier than I figured so a yell for help will go out
Jun 15:02:12 <shorty114> *silence*
Jun 15:03:02 <tunicwriter> 2 - It covers my b-day... I'll be happier
Jun 15:03:03 <relle> The goal is to raise awareness of WordPress and help people backup and protect their precious blogs.
Jun 15:03:17 <relle> Anyone else have an opinion?
Jun 15:03:25 <shorty114> database backups?
Jun 15:03:32 <relle> everything Bacardi.
Jun 15:03:36 <relle> Files, database, all WP stuff.
Jun 15:03:47 <relle> how to for all different systems.
Jun 15:04:03 <Podz__> ^^ thats the tricky bit
Jun 15:04:08 <relle> I know.
Jun 15:04:12 <relle> But I believe.
Jun 15:04:29 <shorty114> hmm reminds me, i should put a cron job to backup database/files
Jun 15:04:34 <relle> Well, matt, any opinion on dates?
Jun 15:04:46 <relle> see, one convert already. ;-)
Jun 15:05:17 <relle> photomatt?
Jun 15:05:20 <shorty114> nah, too much work.
Jun 15:05:48 <photomatt> I don't really have an opinion
Jun 15:06:00 <relle> Okay, podz and the others working on this will set the date and make it a go.
Jun 15:06:03 <relle> NEXT: Future contests coming up? Is there a guideline or advice area for people who want to start new contests?
Jun 15:06:05 <Podz__> there will be ways other than what I write, and I expect the holier_than_thou brigade to descend, but what the hell :)
Jun 15:06:20 <ColdForged> "holier_than_thou brigade"
Jun 15:06:33 <ColdForged> delightful
Jun 15:06:38 <photomatt> that sounds like fun, can I join?
Jun 15:06:49 <relle> absolutely.
Jun 15:07:06 <Podz__> the ones who say there are better ways but never help positively. There are several and it does get boring
Jun 15:07:19 <relle> photomatt: any word on any more up and coming contests?
Jun 15:07:26 <photomatt> none that I know of
Jun 15:07:53 <mdawaffe> shorty114: (and Podz__ ) I use this w/ cron: http://sourceforge.net/projects/automysqlbackup/
Jun 15:08:15 <mdawaffe> And I think I tweaked it to do my template too.... (hm... may be not)
Jun 15:08:31 <ColdForged> Best Use Of Kubrick In A Blog About Kittens
Jun 15:08:44 * ColdForged hushes now
Jun 15:08:51 <mdawaffe> ColdForged: I am totally submitting a entry to that
Jun 15:10:39 <Podz__> mdawaffe:: looks complex ! I shall read through .. maybe a use for gmail yet :)
Jun 15:10:40 <mdawaffe> next?
Jun 15:10:46 <mdawaffe> Podz__: :)
Jun 15:12:59 <-- relle has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
Jun 15:13:08 --> relle (~relle@pcp01286886pcs.hurtl301.al.comcast.net) has joined #WordPress-Meetup
Jun 15:13:22 <relle> sorry
Jun 15:13:33 <shorty114> you didn't miss anything
Jun 15:13:37 <relle> good
Jun 15:14:17 <mdawaffe> Codex Cleanup Volunteers
Jun 15:14:33 <relle> thank you. We have about 16 people and more coming signed up.
Jun 15:14:35 <relle> Very exciting.
Jun 15:14:41 <mdawaffe> awesome
Jun 15:14:49 <relle> People are working on projects already and we have had about four new articles in the past few days.
Jun 15:14:51 <tunicwriter> "Codex Cleanup" ?
Jun 15:14:51 <relle> And more on their way.
Jun 15:15:01 <relle> Assignments given out and other people taking on tasks.
Jun 15:15:03 <relle> Very exciting.
Jun 15:15:17 <photomatt> is it working?
Jun 15:15:20 <relle> Absolutely.
Jun 15:15:30 <relle> People are taking direction and really getting involved.
Jun 15:15:37 <relle> The list of specific things that need to be done is helping a lot.
Jun 15:15:49 <relle> People not wandering around not knowing what to do.
Jun 15:16:01 <relle> We've got a few things done before the cleanup has actually started.
Jun 15:16:11 <relle> Some very jazzed folks who are thrilled to be helping.
Jun 15:16:29 <relle> We have jobs for the total newbie to WP and MediaWiki to help sucker them in, and harder ones FOR THE REST OF YOU.
Jun 15:16:50 <relle> Thanks to everyone who posted a note about this on your blogs and such to help publicize it.
Jun 15:16:58 * shorty114 sleeps on his keyboard
Jun 15:17:03 <relle> We're getting a lot of folks who want to help on the forums but aren't confident enough.
Jun 15:17:04 <relle> Very exciting.
Jun 15:17:51 <relle> On that subject, MichaelH and others worked over time on the new WordPress FAQ and we seriously need some experts to look those over and make sure they are all referring to 1.5 and not 1.2
Jun 15:18:00 <relle> He brought stuff over from the old wiki and all over.
Jun 15:18:06 <relle> http://codex.wordpress.org/FAQ
Jun 15:18:09 <relle> It's a work of art.
Jun 15:18:30 <relle> Though he continues to request that we get a "class" CSS on the FAQ table of contents to shift them from right float to left.
Jun 15:18:34 <relle> Others are whining too.
Jun 15:18:47 <relle> The TOC is too wide for float right so we want it at the top of the screen.
Jun 15:18:58 <relle> Codex is really looking awesome.
Jun 15:19:01 <tunicwriter> Like the main page?
Jun 15:19:06 <photomatt> awesome
Jun 15:19:08 <relle> Lots of good positive responses.
Jun 15:19:40 <relle> So that's it.
Jun 15:20:08 <mdawaffe> Codex Development Articles Wanted
Jun 15:20:45 <relle> We need some articles that deal with the serious topics, but in particular we have some empty links in the Development section of the Codex. But no notes on who put them there or if an article is forthcoming.
Jun 15:20:47 <relle> forthcoming.
Jun 15:20:57 <relle> Nerds Wanted ;-)
Jun 15:21:03 <relle> Geeks wanted ;-)
Jun 15:21:18 <mdawaffe> If there's no article already, there's not one coming
Jun 15:21:22 <mdawaffe> I'd say ping the hackers list
Jun 15:21:39 <masquerade> relle, if you prod me next week, I'll write some articles for you, but someone has to kick me to get me to do it
Jun 15:21:43 <relle> That's what I say. And I did with the cleanup list. Would those on the hackers list pinch hit for me.
Jun 15:21:50 * mdawaffe kicks masquerade
Jun 15:21:55 * relle kicks masquerade into next week today.
Jun 15:22:00 <masquerade> mdawaffe, _NEXT WEEK_
Jun 15:22:02 <tunicwriter> I'd like to see a better, solid, centralized plugin development article... Instead of 3, and links to skippy's user page...
Jun 15:22:06 <masquerade> kick me next week
Jun 15:22:10 * mdawaffe sets up cron job
Jun 15:22:24 <relle> Then fix it, tunicwriter.
Jun 15:22:26 <relle> ;-)
Jun 15:22:44 <tunicwriter> Haaaaaaaaahahahahah... If I only knew plugin dev. like the back of my hand ;P
Jun 15:23:17 <relle> We're really close to filling some serious holes in the rest of the documentation, but development issues are still lacking. There's a list on the Task List. We all want to break a little for the summer, thus the push.
Jun 15:23:42 <relle> Okay, that's it on the Codex.
Jun 15:23:49 <relle> Anything to cover for next week'
Jun 15:24:17 <relle> agenda.
Jun 15:24:17 <relle> Are we going to meet or not without photomatt?
Jun 15:24:17 <shorty114> \
Jun 15:24:43 * mdawaffe won't be here anyway, so won't input
Jun 15:25:38 <Podz__> I'll be here :)
Jun 15:25:44 <relle> Me, too.
Jun 15:25:48 <relle> Can report on cleanup.
Jun 15:25:59 <tunicwriter> I see no problem with it unless Matt does. Obviously we can't make any real decisions, but we can ablest have a general consensus on the issues ready for him when he gets back
Jun 15:26:01 <relle> People do read these notes.
Jun 15:27:20 <relle> Okay, sold. We meet next week as usual.
Jun 15:27:27 --- You are now known as Ppl|Working
Jun 15:27:29 <relle> So anything else?
Jun 15:28:09 <photomatt> not that I can think of
Jun 15:28:19 <photomatt> I think we should have a "setup WP for a friend" week as well
Jun 15:28:22 <relle> Some very exciting stuff happening.
Jun 15:28:28 <relle> Thanks for all the effort, folks.
Jun 15:28:31 <photomatt> (though that should be every week) ;)
Jun 15:28:37 <relle> Oh, that's brilliant!
Jun 15:28:41 <stevecooley> omg, that's like every other day for me!
Jun 15:28:44 <tunicwriter> I did it the other day! :o
Jun 15:28:52 <Podz__> likewise
Jun 15:29:04 <tunicwriter> So it is every week... ;P
Jun 15:29:07 <relle> Is there someone here who wants to coordinate it? I'll help.
Jun 15:29:14 <mdawaffe> No fair Podz__ , you do it like two times a day
Jun 15:29:20 <stevecooley> I have about a dozen blogs at work that I helped set up or influence to use wp
Jun 15:29:29 <Podz__> my record is 5 for 5 diff people
Jun 15:29:36 <mdawaffe> :)
Jun 15:29:39 <photomatt> :)
Jun 15:29:48 <stevecooley> then there's outside of work...
Jun 15:29:49 <Podz__> but I've only downloaded the once !
Jun 15:29:55 <mdawaffe> photomatt: can we make this a pissing contest?
Jun 15:30:01 <Podz__> lol
Jun 15:30:05 <relle> So, looking for someone to coordinate the effort to promote and write, and honk about Setting Up WordPress for a Friend project.
Jun 15:31:12 <relle> Any ideas on who you know who would be good to lead this, photomatt? Since everyone here seems to shut up when a responsibility issue is raised. :-P
Jun 15:31:57 <tomhanna> What's the idea? Just to promote a certain time frame as "the week"?
Jun 15:32:04 <relle> yep.
Jun 15:32:14 <photomatt> well I actually have a larger plan
Jun 15:32:23 <photomatt> I'd like to have a microformat for saying "this person set up WP for me"
Jun 15:32:31 <relle> Beautiful.
Jun 15:32:32 <tomhanna> Or do you want to actually coordinate a little more, like actually have extra support available for the supporters?
Jun 15:32:37 <photomatt> so people who got set up by Podz would link back to him with a special tag
Jun 15:32:39 <stevecooley> I can provide some testimonials about my experience setting up wp for friends
Jun 15:32:48 <relle> This could be huge.
Jun 15:32:50 <relle> I love it.
Jun 15:32:55 <photomatt> and then we can aggregate that
Jun 15:33:07 <stevecooley> ah, a leaderboard
Jun 15:33:09 <stevecooley> ;)
Jun 15:33:09 <mdawaffe> photomatt: awesome. this really IS a pissing contest!
Jun 15:33:10 <photomatt> it'd reward people, and would be hard to game
Jun 15:33:17 <Podz__> I wish I could remember ! be neat to tag each one though
Jun 15:33:24 <stevecooley> haha
Jun 15:33:34 <relle> like a contest?
Jun 15:33:36 <tomhanna> A contest?
Jun 15:33:46 <stevecooley> the NEXT contest emerges!
Jun 15:33:54 <photomatt> no it wouldn't be a contest, as much as a running tally
Jun 15:34:04 <relle> that would lead to a contest....?
Jun 15:34:11 <mdawaffe> not so much a contest as a PISSING contest!
Jun 15:34:17 <stevecooley> lol
Jun 15:34:20 * mdawaffe chuckles to himself and stops bothering people
Jun 15:34:25 <relle> fixing.
Jun 15:34:38 <photomatt> the contest prizes would be the same thing I'm trying to get for people who already help out a lot with WP
Jun 15:34:40 <photomatt> free schwag!
Jun 15:34:48 <mdawaffe> ding!
Jun 15:35:12 <mdawaffe> or one free copy of WordPress!
Jun 15:35:25 <relle> Okay, so this involves a special tag to include in the footer, or somewhere, right?
Jun 15:35:27 <relle> A plugin?
Jun 15:35:45 <tomhanna> In the header.
Jun 15:35:49 <relle> And a place for people to sign up and get "registered" as a WordPress helper?
Jun 15:35:53 <photomatt> it would be a rel value on a normal link
Jun 15:35:56 <relle> So their info would go in the tag?
Jun 15:36:07 <photomatt> just like we have rel="met friend"
Jun 15:36:14 <relle> okay.
Jun 15:36:15 <photomatt> there would be a word that says "setup wordpress for me"
Jun 15:36:23 <photomatt> blogpimp or something ;)
Jun 15:36:38 <relle> Do you have a deadline in mind for when?
Jun 15:36:38 <photomatt> I cant think of a good word for it
Jun 15:36:42 <photomatt> no
Jun 15:36:45 <relle> bloghelper
Jun 15:36:48 <tomhanna> wordpresser
Jun 15:36:53 <relle> love it!
Jun 15:37:01 <photomatt> until we have a good noun for it, I can't write the microformat
Jun 15:37:03 <mdawaffe> photomatt: that's highly suggestive of the reverse relationship... ;)
Jun 15:37:03 <relle> Official WordPresser.
Jun 15:37:10 <Podz__> blogpimp is available :)
Jun 15:37:30 <photomatt> well if possible I'd like to avoid terms with sexual connotations
Jun 15:37:33 <stevecooley> wordpress smith
Jun 15:37:46 <relle> Hi, I'm an Official WordPressersmith.
Jun 15:37:48 <stevecooley> like a blacksmith
Jun 15:38:00 <h0bbel> Wordpriest
Jun 15:38:00 <relle> An apprentice wordpressersmith.
Jun 15:38:01 <Podz__> ".....gave me 5 minutes!
Jun 15:38:10 <photomatt> wordpress-smith could be a rel value
Jun 15:38:18 <h0bbel> This Wordpriest has xx converts
Jun 15:38:29 <photomatt> so could wordpresser, but that seems like it would describe someone using WP as well
Jun 15:38:41 <relle> wordpress-smith....grows on you.
Jun 15:38:43 <photomatt> wordpriest? ha!
Jun 15:38:46 <tomhanna> pressbuilder
Jun 15:38:51 <stevecooley> that's good too
Jun 15:38:51 <relle> wordpress-guru
Jun 15:38:57 <Podz__> MT-squasher ?
Jun 15:39:02 <Podz__> :)
Jun 15:39:16 <mdawaffe> wpfu-master
Jun 15:39:21 <stevecooley> wordpressisan
Jun 15:39:28 <relle> I think it should have the name "wordpress" in it, whatever you choose.
Jun 15:39:38 <stevecooley> like an artisan
Jun 15:39:51 <relle> wordpress-builder
Jun 15:39:56 <relle> That covers most of the bases.
Jun 15:39:58 <Podz__> or a Guild
Jun 15:40:08 <relle> or UNION!
Jun 15:40:09 <Podz__> Pratchett !
Jun 15:40:10 * relle ducks.
Jun 15:40:19 <relle> YEAH PRATCHETT!!!!
Jun 15:40:24 <mdawaffe> incunabulist
Jun 15:40:40 <stevecooley> what about something like "johnny appleseed"
Jun 15:40:51 <stevecooley> something along those lines
Jun 15:40:54 <mdawaffe> http://www.answers.com/incunabula
Jun 15:40:55 <relle> so photomatt, with the name for the rel= what else is needed?
Jun 15:41:02 <h0bbel> Wordpriest - And you could have a list of priests and a count of their parish :)
Jun 15:41:16 <relle> We need an article on the codex to explain... and a place to display the tally...?
Jun 15:42:07 <tomhanna> a place with a feed?
Jun 15:42:58 <stevecooley> wordpress grower
Jun 15:43:02 <stevecooley> growteam
Jun 15:43:08 <photomatt> relle: after that I can handle the rest
Jun 15:43:12 <relle> And it would be nice to time this just after the 1.6 release so people who have wordpress could help others get the new version going and spread the wealth.
Jun 15:43:25 <photomatt> it would be attached to forum profiles
Jun 15:43:25 <relle> I know but tally on the forum or a particular site?
Jun 15:43:29 <relle> Ah.
Jun 15:43:31 <relle> OH.
Jun 15:43:33 <relle> hmmmm.
Jun 15:43:54 * relle thinks, she lives far from humans...how could she get a star after her name on the forum...hmmmm.
Jun 15:44:21 <Podz__> by installing for anyone anywhere
Jun 15:44:31 <h0bbel> wordwhore! :)
Jun 15:44:32 <relle> Ah, virtual pleading: take pity on relle.
Jun 15:44:57 <relle> What about multiple help, photomatt? Could there be more than one "helper"?
Jun 15:45:55 <-- shorty114 (~shorty114@shorty114.user) has left #wordpress-meetup ("PARTy Time!")
Jun 15:47:55 <photomatt> sure
Jun 15:48:01 <relle> This is slick.
Jun 15:48:09 <photomatt> it would also encourage links to helpers
Jun 15:48:12 <tomhanna> should get the companies on the hosting page involved in promoting The Week, if possible
Jun 15:48:16 <photomatt> hopefully getting them more fame and fortune
Jun 15:48:18 <Podz__> it's game-able though
Jun 15:48:32 <photomatt> Podz__: how?
Jun 15:48:44 <relle> tomhanna: brilliant.
Jun 15:48:53 <relle> We should get their help with the backups, too.
Jun 15:48:55 <photomatt> tomhanna: good idea
Jun 15:48:57 <relle> for backup week.
Jun 15:48:58 <Podz__> idiot asks all his mates to drop the tag into any page
Jun 15:49:11 <Podz__> 10 pages ..10 tags
Jun 15:49:24 <photomatt> Podz__: it bases off domain
Jun 15:49:38 <relle> 10 domains = 10 tags.
Jun 15:49:38 <photomatt> and is also not valid unless that's the same domain the person has in their forum profile
Jun 15:49:50 <Podz__> cool !
Jun 15:50:19 <Podz__> that makes sense - just need to get people to reg at the forums
Jun 15:50:24 <photomatt> also if we saw someone shoot to the top and then looked at their blogs and saw they were all the same thing, we could correct that
Jun 15:50:49 <relle> Ah. So we also will need a wordwhore inspector.
Jun 15:50:54 <relle> or three.
Jun 15:50:56 <relle> ;-)
Jun 15:50:58 <Podz__> I would think so
Jun 15:51:05 <Podz__> just to be sure :)
Jun 15:51:05 <photomatt> heh, I know I'll be watching the top 25 or so
Jun 15:51:43 <relle> podz will rocket to the top fast, so he'll have to be wordwhore inspected frequently.
Jun 15:51:45 <relle> :P
Jun 15:51:45 * tunicwriter wants to be in the Top 25 just so Matt watches his blog :o
Jun 15:51:47 <mdawaffe> I'll let my bookie know about it
Jun 15:52:24 <photomatt> we should watch that podz fellow anyway, I think he's trouble ;)
Jun 15:52:40 <relle> So photomatt, it's getting late. Week after next you'll have some plan in mind and a date so we can start whoring the news on a schedule? Sound like a plan?
Jun 15:52:42 <relle> You think?
Jun 15:52:44 <Podz__> lol - I'll certainly shoot for the headstart :)
Jun 15:52:51 <relle> Gees, your slow, the rest of us knew this a long time ago.
Jun 15:53:16 <mdawaffe> relle: date for what?
Jun 15:53:27 <relle> Setup a Friend Week.
Jun 15:53:34 * relle slaps mdawaffe awake.
Jun 15:53:55 <photomatt> could people add their ideas for the keyword to http://codex.wordpress.org/index.php?title=User:Matt/Rel_Ideas&action=edit
Jun 15:54:13 * mdawaffe is awake now
Jun 15:54:17 <photomatt> whoops, http://codex.wordpress.org/User:Matt/Rel_Ideas
Jun 15:54:23 <relle> Thanks.
Jun 15:54:35 <relle> Sounds like a great plan.
Jun 15:54:52 <relle> Anything else on the list of things to talk about?
Jun 15:54:52 <mdawaffe> 'Setup a Friend Week', though, sounds a bit... blind datey
Jun 15:55:04 <relle> Setup WordPress for a Friend Week.
Jun 15:55:09 <Podz__> Install a Friend ?
Jun 15:55:20 <relle> Plugin a Friend.
Jun 15:55:27 <Podz__> ooooooooooh
Jun 15:55:29 <tunicwriter> Theme a Friend
Jun 15:55:38 <mdawaffe> Promote the Cult
Jun 15:55:43 <relle> Press a Friend into WordPress
Jun 15:55:43 <mdawaffe> ;)
Jun 15:55:44 <tunicwriter> It's like Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, just for Wordpress :o
Jun 15:55:56 <tunicwriter> Theme a Friend, that is...
Jun 15:56:31 <photomatt> I like the plugin a friend idea :)
Jun 15:56:32 <relle> I think we should add our recommendations to the new page Matt set up with the horrid title.
Jun 15:56:42 <photomatt> :)
Jun 15:57:15 <relle> Anything else on the agenda or for us to think about next week?
Jun 15:57:23 <relle> Some of us have to pee once in a while. ;-)
Jun 15:57:28 <stevecooley> go enter your ideas for the keyword
Jun 15:58:23 <relle> Have a great time at the conference, photomatt and come back with a lot of neat news and info for everyone.
Jun 15:58:36 <tunicwriter> And free schwag...
Jun 15:58:38 <relle> We'll do our best to keep the WordPress ship on track.
Jun 15:58:45 <relle> or tact, whichever works for you.
Jun 15:58:54 <relle> :-)
Jun 15:59:03 <stevecooley> course, maybe :)
Jun 15:59:04 <tunicwriter> A ship on tracks? :o
Jun 15:59:06 <Podz__> wp stickers!
Jun 15:59:08 <stevecooley> :D
Jun 15:59:17 <relle> sticker podz's!!!!
Jun 15:59:17 --- ColdForged is now known as ColdForged|home
Jun 15:59:34 <tunicwriter> Let's push it off the track and into the water... maybe that'll help.
Jun 15:59:50 <relle> Matt, declare this meeting over so we can all pee and the rugrats can take over their silliness.
Jun 15:59:58 <tunicwriter> SILLY!
Jun 16:00:05 <stevecooley> waaait for it
Jun 16:00:09 --- h0bbel is now known as h0bbel|zzZ
Jun 16:00:39 <relle> photomatt? bang the gavel!
Jun 16:01:00 --- mdawaffe is now known as photowaffe
Jun 16:01:03 <photowaffe> </meetup>
Jun 16:01:07 <relle> thank you!
Jun 16:01:08 --- photowaffe is now known as mdawaffe
Jun 16:01:17 <tunicwriter> clever ;P
Jun 16:01:28 <relle> Nothing like a little organization by committee.


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