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IRC Meetups/2005/November/November30RawLog

[19:06] <photomatt> okay, agenda time
[19:06] <io_error> while you all were gone, matt announced that WordPress would be sold to Microsoft, to replace their stupid MSN Spaces
[19:06] <io_error> :)
[19:06] * Joins: SteamedPenguin
[19:07] <Podz> that's my daughter pissed off then :)
[19:07] <io_error> photomatt: where are the 2.0 release candidates being announced? I think I'm on the testers list, but I seem to be missing things like "RC1 is out"
[19:07] <io_error> or are they just being dropped in nightly-builds and you have to look for them?
[19:08] <photomatt> for not being announced, RC1 has had over a thousand downloads
[19:08] * io_error follows svn, more or less
[19:09] <photomatt> okay let's get started
[19:09] <photomatt> before we go to WP 2.0, which will probably take the bulk of the meeting
[19:10] <photomatt> I just wanted to touch on opendomain really quickly
[19:10] <photomatt> ric blogged he was going to take down wordpress.com the other day, which is obviously not going to happen
[19:10] <photomatt> but while at the site, I noticed this - http://opendomain.org/donate/
[19:10] <photomatt> "If you would like to make a monetary donation to WordPress, please use the PayPal button below."
[19:11] <masquerade> Odd
[19:11] <photomatt> when you click the button it goes to 0pen0main@opendomain.org
[19:11] <io_error> WordPress?
[19:11] <skeltoac> Did you get a nice screenshot of all this?
[19:11] <photomatt> I did
[19:11] <mumbles> Pay To: 0pend0main@OpenDomain.Org
[19:11] <io_error> Yep
[19:12] <io_error> photomatt: oh, the "Powered by WordPress" link at the bottom has nofollow on it
[19:12] <skeltoac> haha
[19:12] <photomatt> oh noes!
[19:12] <skeltoac> No juice for you :)
[19:12] * io_error watches them blink
[19:12] * masquerade looks at the >550 backlinks WP.org had last time he looked and shrugs
[19:12] <io_error> So do the valid XHTML and XFN links, oddly enough
[19:13] <masquerade> s/550/550k
[19:13] <io_error> heh
[19:13] <photomatt> just a heads up for you guys that this guy is getting weirder and weirder, it may be necessary for something legal to happen at some point
[19:13] <photomatt> he's been saying awful things about me too, but my skin has gotten thicker over the years
[19:13] <Podz> well he is practising deception right now isn't he ?
[19:14] <masquerade> photomatt, well, be watching your wp.com logs
[19:14] <io_error> photomatt: the allegation I remember seeing is that you would link to opendomain.org from wordpress.com
[19:14] <SteamedPenguin> wasn't this wordpress.com shady from the get go?
[19:14] <photomatt> but claiming that you donate to WP by sending him money is really troubling
[19:14] * ringmaster has yet to understand what benefit this OpenDomain business serves beyond "legitimizing" domain squatting.
[19:14] <io_error> photomatt: My guess is it's an error and should say "OpenDomain"
[19:14] <Podz> let's all blog they liar then :) - no follow of course!
[19:14] <SteamedPenguin> ringmaster: or enabling spamfarming?
[19:14] <Podz> io_error, I think that will be his easy excuse
[19:15] <photomatt> when we linked to him he used it as in endorsement to get other people to use the service
[19:15] <photomatt> are you guys ethically comfortable with endorsing OD?
[19:15] <masquerade> OD?
[19:15] <Podz> no
[19:15] <photomatt> I'm really open to feedback here
[19:16] <skeltoac> masquerade: OpenDomain
[19:16] <ringmaster> I don't even know what the purpose of it is. Is there a page that describes what he wants?
[19:16] <SteamedPenguin> photomatt: personally I wouldn't touch the guy with a 10-foot pole
[19:16] <masquerade> ringmaster, http://opendomain.org/terms/
[19:16] <mikelittle> Hi FreeTV business is really dubious and makes me instinctively not trust him.
[19:16] <Podz> I don't think wp should link to or endorse him. that said, the actual nitty gritty of the details about the domain are unclear to most of us so when he says things that hint at other agreements, it becomes a clouded issue
[19:17] <masquerade> my personal thought off the top of my head is, leave all as it is, and see what his next course of action is
[19:17] <io_error> The concept seems fine; but I don't know the guy either.
[19:17] <masquerade> if he tries any legal action, we've got these exact words from the terms:
[19:17] <masquerade> "These terms are not legal qualifications. They are written in general language for better understanding, and are not meant to be legally binding to OpenDomain."
[19:17] <skeltoac> He claims to have paid a pretty price for the domain. I wonder what figure.
[19:18] <photomatt> in February we offered to pay him whatever he paid, a couple of people like carthik and mark pledged money, we never heard a figure back
[19:18] <photomatt> anyway it's not worth dwelling on
[19:20] <photomatt> let's talk about WP2
[19:21] <photomatt> there are 12 bugs left on the 2.0 roadmap
[19:21] <photomatt> which has a target date of tomorrow
[19:21] <Podz> !
[19:21] <Podz> release tomorrow ?
[19:21] <masquerade> oh god please no
[19:22] <photomatt> no no
[19:22] <photomatt> I mean that's the date on http://trac.wordpress.org/milestone/2.0
[19:22] <Podz> sod targets :)
[19:22] <photomatt> whew
[19:22] <masquerade> Podz, you trying to get killed?
[19:22] <Podz> lol
[19:22] <io_error> Podz: heh
[19:22] <photomatt> how do you guys feel about the stability lately?
[19:22] <io_error> photomatt: seems fine to me.
[19:22] <photomatt> there aren't really any blockers in the bug queue
[19:22] <Podz> I do think it needs some IE testing.
[19:23] <photomatt> Podz, skeltoac's latest rev addressed a lot of your image issues too
[19:23] <masquerade> photomatt, I think we need a while to continue letting the WYSIWYG stablize, and I think we also need a bit more testing on anything rewrite related, as that seems to be having a lot of difficulties too
[19:23] <skeltoac> I've been playing with those IE bugs you mentioned, Podz, and they are most certainly IE bugs.
[19:24] <Podz> skeltoac, not to forum posters .... they'll be WP "issues"
[19:24] <masquerade> s/WYSIWYG/everything related to the Write page
[19:24] <skeltoac> Podz, I agree they should be handled. That's why I added an item to the agenda today.
[19:25] <Podz> I don't use it - but others will whinge loudly. It would be nice to have formal acknowldegement of these issues ready for release so those of us in the forums can point at them
[19:25] <skeltoac> I've done all I know how to do to force IE's behavior and I have not been able to fix those problems reliably.
[19:25] <photomatt> well IE bugs are effectively blockers
[19:26] <skeltoac> Stuff like unnecessary scrollbars.
[19:26] <photomatt> it's a minority of people who visit WP.org, but probably the people who will be the loudest on the forums
[19:27] <Podz> even just a note would be good .. maybe with an offer of 10% off firefox :)
[19:27] * Joins: stevecooley
[19:27] <masquerade> skeltoac, have you tried in IE7 yet, to see how many of the bugs are fixed?
[19:27] <masquerade> (I konow the prospect is doubtable knowing the history of IE, but maybe we'll get lucky)
[19:27] <photomatt> we still have to target IE6 no matter what
[19:28] <skeltoac> Right.
[19:28] <skeltoac> No, I haven't tried IE7.
[19:28] <masquerade> definitely
[19:28] * photomatt fires up ie
[19:29] <photomatt> anyway, we should really begin preparing the website and such for the release
[19:29] <masquerade> photomatt, how about documentation? there are _tons_ of new things to be documented, including API stuff
[19:30] <masquerade> should we put out a call to arms on getting the Codex ready with 2.0 documentation before the release? Everyone will be asking for it
[19:30] <io_error> Most definitely, documentation is needed soon
[19:30] <photomatt> that's very vague
[19:31] <photomatt> what is the highest priority?
[19:31] <ringmaster> Installation/Upgrade Guide.
[19:31] <masquerade> well, obviously general usage docs are the highest priority, I know API docs are something that I have bits of laying around, which is why I threw that out there
[19:33] <Podz> I have an upgrade guide on my site ready to go
[19:33] <mumbles> im up for testing any documentation stuff
[19:34] <io_error> Podz: What's to upgrade from 1.5-2.0 besides run wp-admin/upgrade.php ?
[19:34] <Podz> io_error, it's catering for the nervous :)
[19:34] <masquerade> io_error, 1.2 -> 2.0 docs are probably good to have also, let us not forget
[19:34] <io_error> masquerade: Oh yes, there are about six people still running 1.2 :)
[19:35] <io_error> actually one of them is running for Congress...
[19:35] <Podz> io_error,it's based on previous experiences, and seeing as each of the 1.5>1/5x threads has been huge, this is an attempt to keep things down
[19:35] <mikelittle> io_error: Aren't there some directory permissions required? I presume the upgrade script doesn't do that.
[19:35] <masquerade> io_error, I see a decent amount of people just now upgrading to 2.0 betas from 1.2 on IRC
[19:36] <io_error> mikelittle: Hm, I ran into no permissions issues, though the new cache does need to be writable -- if not, it's just silently disabled
[19:36] <Podz> I think we could get huge complaints about user levels. they really must be doc'd and if possible parallels drawn with existing levels
[19:37] <mikelittle> It also wants to create an wp-content/uploads directory
[19:37] <masquerade> Podz, I agree there, I think that we should possibly rethink some of the roles based on some of the wp-testers input on the whole thing
[19:37] <io_error> Yeah, user roles need documentation.
[19:37] <io_error> I still don't understand them. :)
[19:38] <mikelittle> Especially as when you first upgrade, if you don't log in as admin you can't so things you used to be able to.
[19:38] <Podz> mikelittle, that alone will generate a few posts, but as 1.5.2 already creates a dupe theme (why?) the number of posts on that is low
[19:38] <mikelittle> *do*
[19:39] <masquerade> I'd also vote for a new default theme
[19:39] <masquerade> kubrick is getting really, really old
[19:39] <ringmaster> I don't really like Kubrick, either, but as Podz keeps saying, supporting a new theme is a scary thing.
[19:39] <Podz> I wouldn't - unless it's a solid, non-clever for the sake of it theme like Classic
[19:40] <masquerade> well, if we get one that's less of a bloody mess...
[19:40] <Podz> people STILL have kubrick issues
[19:40] <ringmaster> One of the /extend themes might work nicely.
[19:40] <Podz> masquerade, but in principle, yes. I think that are much nicer out there
[19:40] <ringmaster> ...if such a thing was to be considered at all.
[19:40] <io_error> Eh, classic needs a facelift
[19:42] <Podz> so ... user levels needs lots of docs ?
[19:43] <mumbles> how about running a 2.0 style comp ?
[19:43] <skeltoac> Time crunch.
[19:44] <masquerade> skeltoac, bah, I think its a great idea
[19:44] <ringmaster> Before the 2.0 release?
[19:44] <Podz> isn't AK pondering that ?
[19:44] <skeltoac> For all its flaws, Kubrick is still a nice trademark.
[19:44] <skeltoac> s/For/Despite
[19:45] <Podz> the new colour thing is neat ...
[19:45] <masquerade> having an official WP contest, we'd definitely get more recognition and participation
[19:46] <Podz> 1. Rules 2. see 1
[19:47] <Podz> and it all goes quiet ........
[19:48] <photomatt> contests can be a real pain
[19:49] <io_error> I don't want to run a contest.
[19:49] <photomatt> we may consider a new stylesheet for classic?
[19:49] <photomatt> not for this release though, it's too late
[19:51] <io_error> photomatt: what should a new classic look like?
[19:51] <photomatt> it's not really a 2.0 issue, we should probably discuss it later
[19:51] <photomatt> it should be classic :)
[19:52] * Quits: ringmaster ("Find me at http://asymptomatic.net, where I remain ambivalent."�)
[19:52] <io_error> and not vomit green?
[19:52] <skeltoac> 50's diner style.
[19:52] <photomatt> I don't think there is anything to do to prevent an upgrade thread from being hundreds of posts long
[19:52] <photomatt> even upgrades that didn't change the DB had that
[19:53] <io_error> photomatt: under no circumstances accept a stylesheet from skeltoac
[19:53] <skeltoac> LOL
[19:53] <mumbles> hehe
[19:53] <photomatt> the user_level issue came up, but I think that's 99% plugins and that bug where authors couldn't edit themselves
[19:53] <skeltoac> io_error: Jefte did it
[19:53] <photomatt> the old system was way more confusing
[19:53] <photomatt> no one ever really knew what the numbers meant
[19:54] <photomatt> so we have upgrade docs, I think we should have two versions
[19:54] <photomatt> a short style and a lorelle/podz style
[19:54] <photomatt> user levels docs
[19:54] <photomatt> what else?
[19:55] <Podz> we have both - I've done both :)
[19:55] <masquerade> photomatt, from the way it sounds, you seem to already have a date in mind for release., urban myth?
[19:55] <MichaelH> User level docs already started with http://codex.wordpress.org/User:MichaelH/Roles and suggestions for improvement welcome.
[19:55] <photomatt> tomorrow!
[19:55] <masquerade> photomatt, I will personally come to your house and kill you... :-P
[19:55] <photomatt> I think we could do it early next week
[19:55] <photomatt> honestly
[19:56] <masquerade> photomatt, how about we do it as a Christmas present?
[19:56] <Podz> yay!
[19:56] <Podz> damn fine idea !
[19:56] <masquerade> give the code freeze a bit of time for any last minute bugs, and not have another 1.5
[19:56] <photomatt> waiting to long is a very bad idea, remember how many people we had running bootleg version of 1.5?
[19:56] <photomatt> it's just as bad, might as well get something baseline out there
[19:56] <masquerade> photomatt, remember how many annoying bugs there were when 1.5 was released?
[19:56] <Podz> but is 2.1 worse ?
[19:57] <masquerade> we've done a great job at keeping the 1.6/2.0 dev stuff a bit under wraps
[19:58] <photomatt> 1.5.1 was a couple of months later
[19:59] <photomatt> and was mostly localization and plugin API fixes
[19:59] <Podz> more bugs squashed now = more relaxing holiday
[19:59] <mikelittle> Lets not have more than release of 2.0 this time. It *always* causes problems.
[19:59] <photomatt> agreed
[19:59] <photomatt> to mike
[19:59] <mikelittle> More than *one*
[19:59] <io_error> heh
[19:59] * io_error hides
[20:00] <photomatt> the shakiest part of things is the attachment system
[20:00] <photomatt> everything else has been pretty much frozen
[20:01] <io_error> oh, and don't forget to reset the download counter :0
[20:01] <photomatt> agree? disagree?
[20:01] <Podz> so is there an agreed list now of what must be done before 2.0 is released ? From this meeting, what do we need and ...... who will do ?
[20:01] <mikelittle> The upload stuff is *completely* unusable by anyone who is blind or cannot use a mouse. As far as I can see there is no way to upload without it.
[20:02] <skeltoac> Yes, we should have a non-inline upload panel like before.
[20:02] <masquerade> speaking of usability
[20:02] <photomatt> are you asserting that iframes don't work for blind people? that's not true
[20:02] <masquerade> what ever happened to the shuttle project?
[20:02] <photomatt> the drag and drop part of it isn't usable, iframes aren't a problem
[20:02] <mikelittle> No, its the drag and drop bit.
[20:03] <photomatt> well I would say that's pretty insurmountable
[20:03] <photomatt> though I would be open to accessibility suggestions for 2.1
[20:04] <stevecooley> seems reasonable
[20:04] <skeltoac> We might be able to work up an image inserter control using the existing popup window. It could have a select element populated with the attached images. That's a bit of work, 2.1 stuff.
[20:04] <skeltoac> It could be made totally accessible.
[20:05] * gsnedders|bz is now known as gsnedders
[20:05] <gsnedders> has it finished?
[20:05] <mikelittle> skeltoac: ...
[20:06] <Podz> gsnedders, no
[20:06] <skeltoac> mikelittle: What does "..." mean? "S"?
[20:07] <photomatt> podz asked what is left to be done
[20:07] <photomatt> I need to work on the website, updating things that refer specifically to 1.5
[20:08] <photomatt> podz, did you say there are 2.0 upgrade docs ready?
[20:08] <Podz> an ugrade guide is done and I'll get it checked over.
[20:08] <masquerade> photomatt, some new screenshots and maybe some videos of the new features would be useful
[20:08] <photomatt> I plan to have screenshots attached to every feature in the blog post
[20:08] <mikelittle> Sketoac: sorry. you said "It could be made totally accessible." , I was hoping for some super quick way, but I realised you were following up your previous sentence
[20:09] <photomatt> owen already wrote a good summary of the new features - http://asymptomatic.net/2005/11/29/2135/whats-new-in-wordpress-20/
[20:09] <photomatt> Podz, could you make a page on the codex for it?
[20:09] <skeltoac> mikelittle: okay :)
[20:11] <photomatt> we'd need to reset the counter
[20:11] <Podz> photomatt, if I can get it proofed enough before the date. I'm trying to also get an FAQ in there from looking over the past upgrade threads and beta forum. It'l probably happen
[20:11] * io_error gets deja vu
[20:11] <photomatt> I'd be happy to proof it on the codex
[20:11] <photomatt> i've been watching the forums pretty closely too
[20:12] <Podz> matt - with respect, it's written for a different target :)
[20:12] <Podz> 1-2-3 ...
[20:12] <photomatt> different target?
[20:13] <photomatt> codex is for WP users
[20:13] <Podz> you know what's what, as do many others here. i'm talking about the very nervous who post many times. And as I've said before, i don't think Codex is "newbie" or "worried" friendly
[20:14] <photomatt> so the solution is publishing docs elsewhere?
[20:15] <masquerade> oh, for 2.0 release time
[20:15] <stevecooley> any way to rank or grade codex pages for user level relevance ?
[20:15] <Podz> no. I said from the start that simple pages would be best for some topics. Codex looks different, has different navigation and just IS different. It's easy for the savvy and not-so for the people worried about things
[20:15] * masquerade votes that the Docs link be pointed to the codex
[20:15] <photomatt> it will in the new design
[20:16] <photomatt> and the codex design will match
[20:16] * Quits: gsnedders ("bedtime for some of us..."�)
[20:21] <photomatt> alright, any further issues to discuss?
[20:21] <io_error> Bedtime?!?
[20:22] <mikelittle> Matt, is London still on?
[20:22] <photomatt> yes, I'll definitely be in london on the 9th
[20:22] <mikelittle> Great!
[20:22] <Podz> where are you staying ? it'll be easier to sort a venue
[20:22] <photomatt> I'm going to try and do a dev blog post soon
[20:22] <photomatt> I was going to book my hotel based on where the venue was
[20:23] <photomatt> just have the flights right now
[20:23] * Podz should be there if the forums aren't too busy following release
[20:23] <Podz> :p
[20:23] <photomatt> ha!
[20:23] <photomatt> in SF we did an "upgrade party" for 1.5
[20:23] <photomatt> it was a lot of fun
[20:24] <photomatt> you can help people in person get going
[20:24] <stevecooley> please not on a weeknight?
[20:24] <masquerade> perhaps I'll tell Owen we should do that for the next Phili meetup
[20:24] <photomatt> the release?
[20:24] <photomatt> oh the upgrade party
[20:24] <stevecooley> the SF party
[20:24] <stevecooley> just an idea :)
[20:25] <photomatt> I'm barely going to be in SF for december, so we probably won't do it this time
[20:26] <photomatt> we'll see
[20:27] <photomatt> so in summary: no release tomorrow
[20:27] <photomatt> party in london on the 9th
[20:27] <io_error> weekend!
[20:27] <Podz> or Friday
[20:28] <photomatt> and we should aim for a release next week, unless serious issue come up in which case I'm fine letting it gel for a week after we fix them
[20:29] <io_error> heh, release, then get on a plane, nice plan :)
[20:29] <photomatt> it'll never be perfect, but there comes a point of diminishing returns
[20:29] <photomatt> we can't sit on it forever!
[20:29] <Podz> yes we can :)
[20:30] <io_error> oh, release whenever it's ready, but not a moment before ;)
[20:30] <photomatt> I'm going to bring a shirt for podz that says "1.5 4ever"
[20:30] <skeltoac> haha
[20:30] <mikelittle> *grin*
[20:30] <photomatt> that'd be great if it was a version, 1.5.4ever
[20:30] <Podz> photomatt, how true - I'll wear it too :)
[20:30] * Podz changes his version string
[20:31] <photomatt> it could have the new W circle with a big red no-smoking thing over it
[20:31] <photomatt> cool :)
[20:31] <stevecooley> photomatt: I have an embroidery machine :)
[20:32] <photomatt> let's wrap it up for today
[20:32] <photomatt> thanks everyone for coming out
[20:32] <photomatt> see you all next week, assuming I'm not on a plane and have net access
[20:33] <mikelittle> I'm off. This dial-up I'm on tonight is killing me!
[20:33] <photomatt> night everyone
[20:33] <photomatt> </meetup>

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