IRC Meetups/2006/January/January04RawLog

[19:00] <photomatt> howdy folks
[19:00] <skippy> aloha
[19:00] <stevecooley> Hi
[19:00] <photomatt> waiting for the codex to load with the agenda
[19:00] <mahangu> hey photomatt
[19:00] <photomatt> on a related note, the codex will be down for about 30 minutes tonight
[19:00] <io_error> error_bot: time
[19:00] <error_bot> io_error: 10:00 PM, January 04, 2006
[19:00] <photomatt> the yahoo folks are moving it to a different cluster so it'll be faster
[19:00] <mahangu> mm yahoo hosting
[19:01] <io_error> photomatt: will it stay online after this?
[19:01] <mahangu> :)
[19:01] <io_error> it seems to go down more than wikipedia, and that's a LOT
[19:01] <photomatt> io_error, no the plan is for random downtime every hour or so to keep people guessing
[19:01] <shep> photomatt: sweeeet
[19:01] <photomatt> we don't want newbies to rely on documentation so much, they never learn anything
[19:01] * ringmaster bangs on the reload button to keep everyone else from seeing IRC_Meetups before he does.
[19:01] <mahangu> photomatt, great plan :)
[19:02] <mumbles> hehe
[19:02] <photomatt> wow, it's really not loading
[19:02] <io_error> photomatt: see?
[19:02] <skippy> hooray for Yahoo
[19:02] <photomatt> how timely
[19:02] <io_error> Yeehaw!
[19:02] * ringmaster 's sinister plan succeeds.
[19:02] <skeltoac> Chaos ensued.
[19:02] <photomatt> ringmaster wins, meeting ajourned
[19:02] <mahangu> guys, im kinda pushed here finiship up this damn paper, anyone got the time to help Fink over in #wordpress? i started off with him, but realized i have class in 6 hours
[19:03] <ringmaster> Woo hoo!
[19:03] <mahangu> *finishing
[19:03] <stevecooley> welp, I had one item on the agenda as of about 1:30pm pst
[19:03] <photomatt> okay, we can wing this one, let's get started
[19:03] <photomatt> <meetup>
[19:03] <stevecooley> * helping out with XMLRPC testing / testcases (stevecooley)
[19:03] <photomatt> stevecooley, what was your agenda item?
[19:03] <photomatt> ah, thank you
[19:04] <stevecooley> I'd love to be able to contribute to the XMLRPC effort, I'd love to know how I can help out effectively
[19:04] <skippy> how many hackers use XMLRPC posting tools?
[19:04] <photomatt> that falls nicely into the general plan for today, which was to divide WP into logical sections and then send that list to wp-hackers
[19:04] <masquerade> skippy, -1
[19:04] <stevecooley> I am
[19:04] <stevecooley> Ecto
[19:04] <photomatt> so people can volunteer to "garden" different parts of WP
[19:04] * mahangu has been looking for a good CLI tool to XMLRPC with
[19:05] <stevecooley> I've used Marsedit and Ecto, and IMHO, Ecto wins
[19:05] <photomatt> the motivation is: WP is big, lot's of people want to help out, ryan and I need more sleep ;)
[19:05] <stevecooley> on Mac OS X
[19:05] <masquerade> photomatt, second on the sleep part, maybe there'll be less bugs if you sleep more ;-)
[19:05] * Joins: rboren
[19:05] <mahangu> stevecooley, yes, I've heard lots of good things about Marsedit.
[19:05] <photomatt> speak of the devil!
[19:05] <stevecooley> mahangu: I'd recommend you try out Ecto first
[19:05] <photomatt> masquerade, I plan to compensate by coding drunk
[19:06] <mumbles> hehehe
[19:06] <masquerade> photomatt, I find that actually works out occasionally
[19:06] <mahangu> photomatt, great idea, with more beers, all bugs are shallow
[19:06] * mumbles keeps out of the coding work couse he cant do it
[19:06] <masquerade> photomatt, you might not be able to understand it later, but a lot of the time, it works, and works damn well
[19:06] <ringmaster> Did someone say beer?
[19:06] <stevecooley> Anyway, folks, the deal is that when I post to WP using Ecto, I almost always get errors.. I think I might be smart enough to at least report what I'm seeing
[19:07] * Joins: OMEITOR
[19:07] <photomatt> ryan can confirm this, but I believe the official drinks of WP development are B&B and drumbuie
[19:07] <mahangu> isn't this because XMLRPC is flaky spec as it is? or is it really bad implementation on our part?
[19:07] <photomatt> stevecooley, that sounds excellent
[19:07] <photomatt> mahangu, I think it's because none of our core people use XML-RPC regularly
[19:07] <mahangu> (in reference to what stevecooley says)
[19:07] <stevecooley> how and where can I do this so that someone who's closer to the code can make my observations hopefully useful
[19:07] <photomatt> the spec is fine, yada yada
[19:07] <mahangu> photomatt, probably that too, yes
[19:08] <photomatt> stevecooley, well trac.wordpress.org is always good
[19:08] * mahangu is willing to try out / test a XMLRPC tool if there is a good free one for *nix
[19:08] <stevecooley> The weird part is that it tends to work ok, but I get these parsing errors on submission
[19:08] <ringmaster> Can someone recommend a few that we can target?
[19:08] <photomatt> but we're about to sectionize (new verb) WP and you could volunteer for the xml-rpc part and get an inside track
[19:08] <skippy> Ecto and w.Bloggar are the names I hear a lot.
[19:08] <rboren> Yes, ecto is the big one.
[19:08] <skippy> photomatt: volunteers need coordinators.
[19:08] <stevecooley> Ecto is pretty good
[19:09] <skippy> coordinators need to know how to coordinate.
[19:09] <photomatt> skippy, indeed
[19:09] <OMEITOR> and Flock and performancing for ff
[19:09] <masquerade> photomatt, I do believe the verb is sectionalize ;-)
[19:09] <skippy> people "volunteering" won't help. We need a plan.
[19:09] <photomatt> and coders need to know how to code, and testers how to test
[19:09] <mahangu> agreed
[19:09] <mahangu> :)
[19:10] <photomatt> anyway, let's get started on the division
[19:10] <skippy> what is expected of the cooridnators? How do they report back? Regular ol' trac tickets? That threatens to lose them.
[19:10] <photomatt> xml-rpc is a first no brainer
[19:10] <photomatt> skippy, let's talk about that next, after this
[19:10] <OMEITOR> what are we talking about? sorry im late ..
[19:10] <mahangu> photomatt, something i constantly feel is that coders with l33t skillz and enough free time (masquerade comes to mind) aren't used enough by WP :)
[19:10] <ringmaster> Is this just for sectioning users into testing groups?
[19:10] <photomatt> OMEITOR, ways to divide WP into sections that different people can take responsibility for
[19:10] <masquerade> mahangu, why me? lol
[19:11] <mahangu> so this is excellent (what we're doing now)
[19:11] <stevecooley> I'd love to help with the XMLRPC, but I don't think I'm close enough to the specs and the code to own it
[19:11] <OMEITOR> the development?
[19:11] <mahangu> masquerade, just one example :)
[19:11] <photomatt> for example, a xml-rpc lead can be in charge of making sure xml-rpc works. both development and testing
[19:11] <OMEITOR> or you mean like microsoft
[19:11] <OMEITOR> :)
[19:11] <photomatt> or at least verified testing
[19:11] <skeltoac> stevecooley: You don't have to be a coder to be a coordinator.
[19:11] <mahangu> OMEITOR, the DIRTY word :o
[19:11] <photomatt> right now we're brainstorming different sections
[19:11] <photomatt> let's just throw them out, decide which ones to keep later
[19:11] <photomatt> xml-rpc
[19:11] <photomatt> trackbacks/pingbacks
[19:11] <ringmaster> wp-admin
[19:11] <skeltoac> User system
[19:11] <stevecooley> I'm probably a good intelligent user that a higher level coder could work with to test things out
[19:11] <masquerade> WYSIWYG
[19:11] <OMEITOR> comments/trackbacks
[19:12] <photomatt> roles
[19:12] <photomatt> javascript/wysiwyg
[19:12] <OMEITOR> plugin api
[19:12] <masquerade> Rewrites
[19:12] <photomatt> themes
[19:12] <ringmaster> template tags
[19:12] <skippy> categories
[19:12] <stevecooley> skeltoac: good point,
[19:12] * mahangu watches the buzzwords fly
[19:12] <OMEITOR> importers
[19:12] <skeltoac> security
[19:12] <ringmaster> Of course, the stuff we don't list here is the stuff that REALLY needs attention.
[19:12] <masquerade> mahangu, tags, ajax, Web 2.0, anything with an uppercase X
[19:12] <photomatt> in-line documentation
[19:13] <masquerade> translations
[19:13] <photomatt> pages
[19:13] <ringmaster> feeds
[19:13] <photomatt> uploading and management, media
[19:13] <photomatt> link manager
[19:13] <photomatt> performance/speed
[19:13] <stevecooley> this conversation needs a wiki page
[19:13] <rboren> And multiply all of that by the number of hosting environments.
[19:13] <photomatt> stevecooley, it will have one
[19:13] <ringmaster> plugin API
[19:13] <stevecooley> :D
[19:13] <mahangu> photomatt, just remembered, I have a matter to table as well (after all this)
[19:13] <photomatt> yes, PHP environments
[19:14] <photomatt> mahangu, okay, ping me with it in a PM
[19:14] <photomatt> support
[19:14] <photomatt> codex
[19:14] <masquerade> MySQL versions
[19:14] <mahangu> photomatt, i think we need to have IIS testing, ive seen some complaints. i know, i mean who even hosts on IIS, but there are apparently a few
[19:14] <photomatt> okay
[19:14] <rboren> Win/Lin/mod/CGI/IIS/Apache/with safe mode/without safe mode/with fix path info/without fix path info/ with apache redirection/ without....
[19:15] <photomatt> design
[19:15] <photomatt> slash aesthetics
[19:15] <OMEITOR> coding standards?
[19:15] <stevecooley> codex is back
[19:15] <masquerade> shuttle (they've already got their own group)
[19:15] <ringmaster> stevecooley: You lie!
[19:15] <skippy> a high-level usability group?
[19:15] <mahangu> codex loads!
[19:16] <photomatt> no need for question marks, everything is valid at this stage, just brainstorming
[19:16] <photomatt> we'll decide how to organize it in a few minutes
[19:16] <OMEITOR> ok
[19:16] <skippy> back-end WP infrastructure ("Matt doesn't scale")
[19:16] <OMEITOR> feature requests
[19:16] <photomatt> WP-clonematt
[19:16] <OMEITOR> autoMATTic
[19:16] <rboren> The bus factor
[19:16] <mumbles> theme colecting
[19:17] <photomatt> wordpress.org
[19:17] <photomatt> bug gardening
[19:17] <stevecooley> themes.wordpress.net
[19:17] <photomatt> security
[19:17] <skippy> wp-plugins.org
[19:17] <photomatt> plugin directory
[19:17] <photomatt> plugin repository
[19:17] <photomatt> (one for users, one for developers)
[19:17] <OMEITOR> the same goes for themes..
[19:17] <photomatt> same for themes
[19:17] <OMEITOR> ^^^
[19:17] <photomatt> browser testing
[19:18] <mahangu> the fragmentation of various plugin repos?
[19:18] <skippy> did we miss anything? Oh, the kitchen sink.
[19:18] <mahangu> masquerade, what's up with elixir/alchemy
[19:18] <photomatt> mahangu, shhh, later!
[19:18] <masquerade> GOD! I KNEW someone would bring that up
[19:18] <photomatt> marketing
[19:18] <OMEITOR> themes in the theme lists should be properly tested
[19:18] <mahangu> sorry
[19:18] * mahangu stays on-topic
[19:18] <skippy> devblog posting.
[19:19] <stevecooley> dashboard ?
[19:19] <masquerade> forums fixing
[19:19] <OMEITOR> matt's secret blog on wordpress.org
[19:19] <photomatt> dashboard
[19:19] <OMEITOR> (yeah i found it :) )
[19:19] <skippy> okay, so we've enumerated lots of aspects of WordPress. Now what?
[19:19] <photomatt> any more ideas before we stop brainstorming?
[19:19] <photomatt> I think we've got pretty good coverage
[19:20] <OMEITOR> themes
[19:20] <stevecooley> codex page all these things, and people sign up for what they want to help on ?
[19:20] <photomatt> would someone like to collate the last 5 minutes of suggestions into a list? then we can go through and decide what's most important
[19:20] <OMEITOR> i dont mean the .net domain, but the wp.org page
[19:21] <mahangu> photomatt, im on it
[19:21] * mumbles stops listing
[19:21] <photomatt> mahangu, okay, give us a link to the wiki page when you're done
[19:21] * Quits: io_error ("Leaving"�)
[19:22] <photomatt> to address skippy's issue
[19:22] <photomatt> I think almost everything suggested is reasonable
[19:22] <photomatt> I'd be interested to see which areas people have interest helping in
[19:22] <photomatt> both here and from the wp-hackers audience
[19:22] <photomatt> and then I'll work my butt off to provide whatever those folks need to get started
[19:23] <photomatt> while we're waiting
[19:23] <photomatt> there is an "extra" server from the old wordpress.com setup
[19:23] <photomatt> very powerful, runs cpanel so it'd be easy to host lots of people on
[19:23] <photomatt> I've been thinking it'd be nice to make it available for whoever has WP projects but doesn't want to or can't host them
[19:24] <photomatt> free for WP projects
[19:24] <OMEITOR> you mean like theme development and plugins
[19:24] <OMEITOR> ?
[19:24] <photomatt> yes
[19:24] <mumbles> that would be nice
[19:24] <photomatt> that could avoid things liken when the elixir project lost some code a few weeks ago
[19:24] <photomatt> or even like when binarybonsai kep going down because the bandwidth from people downloading kubrick was too high
[19:24] <OMEITOR> but how can you be sure nobody uses it for the pr
[19:25] <photomatt> I've done this on an ad-hoc basis in the past
[19:25] <photomatt> I host themes.wordpress.net for example, though it's on an old slow box right now
[19:25] <OMEITOR> but the chances of something like kubrick happening again are really low
[19:25] <stevecooley> hey
[19:25] <stevecooley> can you move it to the fast new box? :)
[19:25] <photomatt> maybe that's what wordpress.net could become? like sourceforge for WP projects
[19:26] <photomatt> cpanel provides subdomains, email, mailing lists, almost everything people could need
[19:26] <photomatt> SVN is already available on the wp-plugins/themes sites
[19:26] <OMEITOR> isn't there something open source that does something like sourceforge?
[19:26] <photomatt> OMEITOR, yes, but the software is a bear
[19:26] <OMEITOR> :(
[19:26] <photomatt> I'd rather just provide the equivalent of what people would get if they paid $10/mo to bluehost or similar
[19:27] <photomatt> stevecooley, I can move it to the faster box :)
[19:27] <OMEITOR> still, there's no way you can be sure it'll be used for themes and plugins only
[19:27] <mumbles> it would have to be hevily poilced
[19:27] <stevecooley> photomatt: sweeeet! will that change any IP addresses or anything like that?
[19:27] <photomatt> it wouldn't be open signup
[19:27] <photomatt> people would apply and be accepted
[19:27] <OMEITOR> besides there are only a few themes and plugins that are that popular
[19:27] <OMEITOR> and those are mainly hosted on dedicated servers
[19:28] <OMEITOR> and the ads pay for the stuff usually..
[19:28] <OMEITOR> get my point?
[19:28] <photomatt> people can still do that, the goal is just to remove barriers
[19:28] <mumbles> hehe my theme idea hasent got off the ground yet. :p
[19:28] <photomatt> there are security implications to having people on wordpress.org
[19:29] <photomatt> wordpress.com is free but too limited for any development
[19:29] <OMEITOR> i agree
[19:29] <photomatt> so a middle ground :)
[19:29] <skippy> while we're waiting for mahangu to compile the list, can you address what options are available to enhancing the back-end support for the _servers_ and their software? So when things go wonky, or a trac spam run starts, reliable people can step in as they are available?
[19:29] <OMEITOR> you could just let the people host on wp.com
[19:29] <OMEITOR> and for the actual development use wp.net
[19:30] <photomatt> mahangu, how's it going?
[19:30] <mahangu> skippy, just waiting for the codex to load up for me :) two seconds
[19:30] <mahangu> photomatt, above
[19:30] <mahangu> it's being sporadic
[19:30] <skippy> pastebin it for the time being, mahangu
[19:30] <photomatt> skippy, could you clarify?
[19:30] <skippy> we can move it from pastebin to codex when codex becomes responsive
[19:30] <photomatt> trac and SVN is hosted by textdrive
[19:31] <photomatt> wp.org itself has been moved off textdrive
[19:31] <photomatt> the codex is on yahoo
[19:31] <skippy> photomatt: adding Codex administrators; modifying bbPress cofnigurations; stuff that currently requires your intervention
[19:31] <photomatt> actually codex admins can be added
[19:31] <skippy> what about resetting Codex passwords?
[19:32] <skippy> http://pastebin.bafserv.com/2474 <-- topic list
[19:32] <photomatt> skippy, I'm not sure what the prob is there. I'm guessing there's a bug with sending mail?
[19:32] <mahangu> oh sorry, forgot wpbot isn;'t in here
[19:32] <mumbles> can we have a backup codex ?
[19:32] <skippy> photomatt: sending mail seems not to work, yes. But a SQL query can reset a user's passwords. Are you the only one who can reset passwords?
[19:33] <mumbles> for when codex goes down - if it ever happerns again
[19:33] <skippy> whatever happened to the single sign-on plugin?
[19:33] <mumbles> or an link to download the codex
[19:33] <photomatt> skippy, I don't know
[19:33] <skippy> sorry, I'm switching gears. lets focus on Codex passwords
[19:33] <mahangu> photomatt, skippy : have i missed anything in that?
[19:33] <skippy> you mentioned that we can't upgrade? Who has tried what steps?
[19:34] <photomatt> I have tried upgrading, and brion vibber from wikipedia/mediawiki has walked through the code with me
[19:34] <photomatt> I spent a few days on it, no dice
[19:35] <mahangu> perhaps we need to think another wiki engine?
[19:35] <photomatt> well, "if it ain't broke"
[19:35] <photomatt> it's a tiny bit broke right now, I don't want to really break it
[19:35] <OMEITOR> the problem is the db right?
[19:36] <photomatt> I'm happy to provide a DB dump to skippy if he wants to take a whack at it
[19:36] <skippy> sure. I'll look at it.
[19:36] <OMEITOR> what's the size
[19:36] <photomatt> a few hundred mb
[19:36] <mahangu> :)
[19:36] <photomatt> we also have the wiki-tech mailing list for this sort of thing
[19:36] <skippy> make a dump available and I'll wget it.
[19:36] <photomatt> skippy, okay. will do
[19:37] <skippy> so back to the testing groups.
[19:37] <photomatt> so is http://pastebin.bafserv.com/2474 the final list?
[19:37] <skippy> what is the expectation of how volunteers can contribute?
[19:38] <photomatt> skippy, suggestions?
[19:38] <mahangu> photomatt, yes
[19:38] <skippy> as I said, we need coordination of sort; otherwise we just have groups of data coming in, instead of ungrouped data coming.
[19:39] * mahangu changes topic to 'http://codex.wordpress.org/IRC_Meetups || Currently under discussion - http://pastebin.bafserv.com/2474�'
[19:39] <photomatt> okay I've got a copy of it here
[19:39] <photomatt> let's eliminate dupes, and then decide what each "section" would entail
[19:39] <mahangu> photomatt, as skippy says, we need a few small (and preferebly) independent teams
[19:39] <photomatt> to make it easier to flesh out the responibilites
[19:40] <photomatt> okay let's combine trackbacks/pingbacks/comments
[19:40] <photomatt> combine user system and roles
[19:40] <OMEITOR> there should be some big groups with divisions
[19:40] * mahangu is making notes, and will amend the list once finished
[19:40] <photomatt> mahangu, don't worry, I'm doing it as we go along
[19:40] <mahangu> ok great
[19:40] <photomatt> combine JS and wysiwyg
[19:40] <skippy> I suggest we step back and review wha the objective is for this. As I understand it, the objective is to reduce the number of bugs that are present in WordPress releases.
[19:41] <photomatt> skippy, okay
[19:41] <skippy> am I incorrect?
[19:41] <photomatt> is something not clear?
[19:41] <photomatt> reduce bugs, make it easier for people to contribute, divide reponsibility
[19:41] <rboren> Improving test coverage.
[19:42] <masquerade> Real QA
[19:42] <photomatt> I would say it comes down mostly to responsibility
[19:42] <stevecooley> alpha sort: http://pastebin.bafserv.com/2476
[19:42] <skippy> I want to make sure that we all understand why this is being done, to eliminate ambiguity. reduce bugs, contributions, responsibility and QA all make sense to me.
[19:44] <photomatt> does that sound good to everybody?
[19:44] <mahangu> yeah
[19:44] <mahangu> sounds fine
[19:44] <skeltoac> +1
[19:44] <OMEITOR> yeah
[19:44] <masquerade> sounds like what I intended the proposal for :-P
[19:44] <photomatt> okay what are some other things we can combine on the list?
[19:45] * Quits: ringmaster (Connection timed out�)
[19:45] <mahangu> themes/repos
[19:45] <mahangu> plugins/repos
[19:45] <OMEITOR> plugins could be merged
[19:45] <OMEITOR> yeah
[19:47] <photomatt> okay
[19:48] <photomatt> give me one minute
[19:48] <mahangu> wp-admin/shuttle/dashboard
[19:48] <PotterSys> sorry, but what's shuttle?
[19:48] <OMEITOR> a theme for the admin area
[19:48] <stevecooley> pottersys: +1
[19:49] <skeltoac> http://www.google.com/search?q=wordpress+shuttle
[19:49] <OMEITOR> or something like that
[19:49] <mahangu> PotterSys, http://www.brokenkode.com/shuttle
[19:49] <PotterSys> heh; thanks to all
[19:49] <mahangu> it's weird that we've not seen any betas or screenshots
[19:49] <mahangu> or have we?
[19:50] <OMEITOR> not that i know of
[19:50] <masquerade> that reminds me, I do love that text on WordPress.org about the admin area being completely redesigned, after a few color changes
[19:50] <photomatt> masquerade, thanks
[19:51] <MichaelH> a merged documentation=codex/in-line documentation/feature requests/coding standards/devblog posting/ maybe translations
[19:51] <OMEITOR> devblog is more marketing/pr
[19:52] <OMEITOR> i think..
[19:52] <mahangu> i was gonna say that
[19:52] <photomatt> okay here - http://pastebin.bafserv.com/2477
[19:52] <photomatt> too bad we can't all use subethaedit or something
[19:53] <stevecooley> photomatt: indeed!
[19:53] <photomatt> okay everyone load that up, any suggested changes?
[19:53] <photomatt> we need a bigass internet whiteboard
[19:54] <masquerade> I thought that's what IRC was
[19:54] <masquerade> minus the erasing capability
[19:54] <OMEITOR> i think wp needs the marketing part..
[19:54] <OMEITOR> :)
[19:54] <stevecooley> baiwb.net is available
[19:55] <mahangu> photomatt, now you're asking for volunteers for each area?
[19:55] <photomatt> mahangu, not quite yet
[19:55] <photomatt> some of these might not be needed
[19:55] <photomatt> xml-rpc is reasonable
[19:56] <photomatt> commenting is important enough it at least needs good testing, particualrly trackback
[19:56] <masquerade> +pingback
[19:56] <photomatt> roles, eh. not sure if that's something someone could focus full-time on
[19:56] <photomatt> same with rewrites/permalinks
[19:56] <skippy> before any release, _every_ supported rewrite configuration should be tested
[19:57] <photomatt> but I guess if this is for testing as well, that's something that needs to be tested
[19:57] <skippy> that can be fairly well automated.
[19:57] <photomatt> well let's start describing each one, starting with xml-rpc
[19:57] <photomatt> that will help us weed out the ones we can't think of enough for
[19:57] <skippy> remote posting tools, a la Ecto, as suggested by stevecooley
[19:58] <photomatt> XML-RPC needs someone to test popular clients
[19:58] <stevecooley> I can test two on the mac
[19:58] <stevecooley> because I've paid for two on the mac
[19:58] <photomatt> and also to look into ways to expand our XML-RPC support on the development side
[19:58] <stevecooley> Like Atom support?
[19:58] <photomatt> yep
[19:59] <photomatt> okay, what does the comments/tb/pb need to cover?
[19:59] <mahangu> anybody seen blogger's 'post from within M$ word' widget? i wonder how hard it'll be to make something like that for wp
[20:00] <masquerade> making sure execute-pings is constantly working, make sure trackbacks and pingbacks are working, both in and out
[20:00] * stevecooley cringes
[20:00] <masquerade> That seems to be one feature that breaks during every cycle
[20:01] <photomatt> okay
[20:01] <photomatt> okay, user system and roles
[20:02] <photomatt> ?
[20:03] <mahangu> basically how they work with new themes, someone needs to write a theme upgrade guide (has Podz already done this?)
[20:03] <mahangu> a couple of themes broke with 2.0, iirc
[20:04] <podz> mahangu, and that should be up to theme authors. Their themes, their work. And there are HUNDREDS of themes now.
[20:04] <rboren> Most of them don't do that kinda crack.
[20:04] <photomatt> true
[20:05] <mahangu> podz, i agree, but shouldn't we provide some basic documentation. i.e - x should now be written as y?
[20:05] <photomatt> we should help them do the right thing as much as possible
[20:05] <mumbles> my themes work with 2.0
[20:05] <podz> mahangu, "we" :p
[20:05] <photomatt> the amount of themes with XSS problems is staggering
[20:05] <mahangu> podz, agreed, i wasn't pointing you out.. i just recall you writing an upgrade guide
[20:06] <podz> I'll do guides so long as it's crystal clear. No guide = no blame in many ways. Make a mistake in a guide ... ?
[20:06] <masquerade> photomatt, I still contend that with 2.0 we should've provided functions and cleaned variables that had the search related stuff, and unset($_GET
[20:06] <podz> I'm no coder. I know nothing of XSS and suchlike. So _I_ would need to know first
[20:06] <photomatt> http://codex.wordpress.org/User:Matt/WordPress_Responsibilities
[20:07] <photomatt> if any of you want to follow along with what I have so far, will be updating it every few points
[20:07] <photomatt> podz, exactly
[20:07] <photomatt> wysiwyg/js
[20:07] <photomatt> consolidating and improving load times
[20:08] <skippy> graceful degredation
[20:08] <skeltoac> ajaxcat, list manipulation, tinymce, what else?
[20:08] <photomatt> improving HTML compatibility
[20:08] <photomatt> right now we deal *really* badly with more than basic HTML
[20:09] <photomatt> saving JS prefs in user prefs
[20:10] <photomatt> *rewrites/permalinks*
[20:10] <skeltoac> dbx
[20:10] <mahangu> photomatt, are we moving for a bugfix release? 2.0.1 or something? or are we waiting for a feature release?
[20:10] <photomatt> mahangu, later
[20:11] <mahangu> sorry, my bad
[20:11] <mahangu> :s
[20:11] <photomatt> testing different rewrite methods - 404, mod_rewrite
[20:12] * Joins: tunicwriter
[20:12] <photomatt> bundled themes?
[20:12] <mumbles> needs to be looked at
[20:12] <mahangu> photomatt, yes, a few non bulky ones
[20:12] <mumbles> ones that are esily changed
[20:13] <podz> ones that need no plugins
[20:13] <photomatt> browser testing
[20:13] <mumbles> with <-- comments --> that meen stuff
[20:13] <skeltoac> They could be updated to work with the newest features supported in themes, without going too far overboard.
[20:13] <mumbles> xhtml transiltional valid
[20:14] <mahangu> yes
[20:14] <photomatt> sounds good
[20:14] <photomatt> template tags?
[20:14] <mumbles> kindof like what ive been trying to do but failing
[20:14] <photomatt> I'm not sure what would fall under template tags, nix it?
[20:15] <mumbles> just include support in the themes for stuff like the calendar thing
[20:15] <photomatt> okay, next up is "categories"
[20:16] <skippy> making sure add / delete / rename / re-nest categories works
[20:16] <skeltoac> could be part of a larger group
[20:17] <photomatt> okay
[20:17] <photomatt> inline documentation
[20:17] <photomatt> including bits of documentation to explain non-intuitive parts of WP
[20:17] <photomatt> and linking to further help
[20:18] <skippy> do you mean inline in the code?
[20:18] <mumbles> making shore the help means something to people
[20:18] <skippy> I would love to see better commenting in the code.
[20:18] <photomatt> I mean bundled with WP
[20:18] <skippy> okay.
[20:18] <photomatt> skippy, this is user facing, not source code necessarily
[20:18] <skippy> okay.
[20:18] <photomatt> improving brevity and clarity of text
[20:19] <skeltoac> For example, the WYSIWYG help button
[20:19] <mumbles> nice wording
[20:19] <photomatt> okay http://codex.wordpress.org/User:Matt/WordPress_Responsibilities updated
[20:19] <photomatt> "pages"
[20:19] <photomatt> improving WP's usefullness as a CMS
[20:20] <photomatt> "feeds"
[20:20] <photomatt> ensuring compliance
[20:20] <photomatt> testing major aggregators
[20:21] <photomatt> adding support for new standards
[20:22] * skippy is now known as skippy|away
[20:22] <photomatt> okay, "uploading and management, media"
[20:23] <photomatt> skeltoac?
[20:23] <skeltoac> Attachment-only uploading hasn't made everyone happy.
[20:24] <skeltoac> We might ought to bring back some old features in new clothes.
[20:24] <skeltoac> Compat is an issue. Server setups are wildly variable.
[20:24] <photomatt> http://codex.wordpress.org/User:Matt/WordPress_Responsibilities updated
[20:25] <skeltoac> mime type support could be expanded.
[20:26] <skeltoac> Enclosure types should also be reviewed
[20:26] <photomatt> okay sounds good
[20:26] <photomatt> "link manager"
[20:27] <photomatt> OPML import/export
[20:27] <photomatt> display functions
[20:27] <mumbles> options to have differnt themes
[20:27] <photomatt> UI improvement
[20:27] <mumbles> on differnt pages
[20:27] <photomatt> "performance"
[20:28] <photomatt> benchmarking
[20:28] <photomatt> profiling
[20:28] <photomatt> identifying bottlenecks
[20:28] <photomatt> optimizations
[20:28] <skeltoac> cache
[20:28] <photomatt> Plugin API
[20:28] <photomatt> ?
[20:29] <photomatt> don't think we need anything specific there, it's more broad
[20:29] <photomatt> design / aesthetics
[20:29] <photomatt> making WP "purty"
[20:29] <photomatt> typography
[20:30] <skeltoac> Not to be owned by a coder, but to have access to coders to implement design decisions
[20:30] <photomatt> color coorditanio
[20:30] <photomatt> speling
[20:30] <photomatt> ;)
[20:30] <skeltoac> ah yeah
[20:30] <mumbles> ah - cant help there
[20:31] <photomatt> usability should fall under that too
[20:33] <photomatt> coding standards
[20:33] <photomatt> ensuring WP code is consistent and readable
[20:33] <photomatt> security
[20:33] <photomatt> regularly auditing user input and sanitation
[20:34] <photomatt> alright updated
[20:34] * Joins: mahangu_
[20:34] <photomatt> http://codex.wordpress.org/User:Matt/WordPress_Responsibilities
[20:35] <photomatt> codex is timing out again, damnit
[20:35] <mumbles> i have a copey open
[20:35] <mumbles> about 3 updates ago
[20:35] <mumbles> could pastbin that
[20:35] <photomatt> let me pastebin the latest
[20:35] <mumbles> k
[20:36] <photomatt> http://codex.wordpress.org/User:Matt/WordPress_Responsibilities
[20:36] <photomatt> sorry - http://pastebin.bafserv.com/2478
[20:36] <photomatt> copy and paste never works right on ubuntu
[20:37] <photomatt> okay, there's not a whole lot of feedback so I'll finish this on my own and send it to the hackers list
[20:37] <photomatt> any other topics before ending the meetup?
[20:37] <mumbles> nothing i can think of
[20:38] <mumbles> we have covered my main "anoyence"
[20:38] <skeltoac> Anyone else still awake?
[20:38] <stevecooley> I'm back, sorry, I had a 3pm meeting
[20:38] <photomatt> my plan of boring everyone away worked
[20:38] <skeltoac> +1
[20:38] <skeltoac> organizational meetings are too good at that
[20:39] <photomatt> I blame skippy, because he's not here
[20:39] <stevecooley> ok, so just so I catch the important stuff before we end
[20:39] <mumbles> he
[20:39] <mumbles> photomat++
[20:39] <stevecooley> we're going to start figuring out who's going to help out on each of these things next time? or during the week or something?
[20:40] <skeltoac> back to lists
[20:40] <mumbles> im up for helping out wherever i can
[20:40] <mumbles> mainly on theme stuff
[20:40] <mumbles> and testing the user docs
[20:41] <stevecooley> so yeah, it seems like we should be able to sign up under these lists where we want to make ourselves available
[20:41] <mumbles> differnt mailing lists or somethign for each topic ?
[20:41] <mumbles> forum posts ?
[20:41] <photomatt> I'm going to send the whole thing to wp-hackers
[20:42] <photomatt> I'm not sure the best way for the groups to communicate
[20:42] <mumbles> googles wp-hackers
[20:42] <photomatt> it doesn't really matter, whatever works best for the people involved
[20:42] <mahangu_> no, keep it on one list
[20:42] <mumbles> theres always going to be the mailing list - instent messageing crowd
[20:42] * mahangu_ is already subscribed to a gazillion dev lists
[20:42] <stevecooley> uh, there's like 50 topics here, aren't there??
[20:43] <mumbles> what is the address to catch all the lists ?
[20:43] <mahangu_> photomatt, i tabled the topic of the codex. any comment on that?
[20:43] <mahangu_> stevecooley, exactly
[20:43] <photomatt> what about it?
[20:43] <mahangu_> mumbles, there are only two afaik
[20:43] <mahangu_> well three
[20:43] <mahangu_> wp-docs, wp-hackers, wp-testers
[20:44] <PotterSys> mumbles: when codex is working, check http://codex.wordpress.org/Mailing_Lists
[20:44] <photomatt> wp-forums, wp-design, wiki
[20:44] <photomatt> we have lots of mailing lists
[20:44] <photomatt> wp-polyglots
[20:44] <photomatt> wp-supersecret
[20:44] <mahangu_> photomatt, i assume the codex will have another 'group' of people working on it, under this new structure
[20:45] <mahangu_> wp-web20?
[20:45] * mahangu_ shuts up
[20:45] <photomatt> codex already has wp-docs
[20:45] <stevecooley> more like "web 5.4"
[20:45] <mahangu_> yup
[20:46] <photomatt> the codex has remained pretty healthy, I'm not worried about it right now
[20:47] <mahangu_> photomatt, it has stopped growing in the way it used to. we need to get #wordpress-docs going, along with a renewed interest in it
[20:47] <mahangu_> i know not where relle is, but someone needs to do what she did
[20:47] <stevecooley> Is there any way to arbitrarily create mail lists on wp.org?
[20:48] <photomatt> stevecooley, no
[20:48] <photomatt> but I'll create one if someone asks and has a good reason
[20:48] <mumbles> joined
[20:48] <mumbles> now who has ops in there ?
[20:48] <stevecooley> photomatt: is there enough there for an xmlrpc testing list?
[20:48] <mahangu_> mumbles, does it matter?
[20:49] <photomatt> if you could get 5-10 people to join, then yes
[20:49] <mahangu_> photomatt, once we have all this sorted out, i suggest another codex drive (a week?)
[20:49] <mumbles> mahangu - not really
[20:49] <stevecooley> ok, classic chicken or egg problem :)
[20:50] <photomatt> mahangu, that'd be worth bringing up on wp-docs
[20:51] <photomatt> okay I'm exhausted, let's call it
[20:51] <photomatt> </meetup>
[20:51] <photomatt> see you all next week

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