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IRC Meetups/2006/March/March29RawLog

[18:00] <photomatt_lap> howdy
[18:00] <Podz> ah - 'tis time :)
[18:01] <photomatt_lap> let's get started
[18:01] <photomatt_lap> <meetup>
[18:01] <photomatt_lap> glad to see podz is keeping it lively as usually
[18:01] <Podz> shall I start :)
[18:01] <photomatt_lap> Podz: want to present your opening topic?
[18:02] <Podz> okay. Themes. My views will be shared with no-one - i know that. Anyway, first, shadow has stopped all things with themes.wordpress.net
[18:02] <photomatt_lap> why?
[18:02] <gsnedders> is it too late to drop another item on the agenda?
[18:03] <stevecooley> Because it's a lot of work to maintain it
[18:03] <photomatt_lap> gsnedders: just add it to the wiki
[18:03] <photomatt_lap> I just moved it to a new host so it's much faster
[18:03] <Podz> his website has been plundered recently with the same IP downloading all the themes. There are also several sites sprining up that throw ads at work which he has done for free
[18:03] <stevecooley> the human elements are time intensive
[18:03] <Podz> so why work for free when the sploggers have got the drift of themes=traffic=ads=clicks
[18:03] <stevecooley> indeed
[18:04] * Joins: masquerade
[18:04] <stevecooley> I built the back end for that new system
[18:04] <photomatt_lap> okay, it seems like there are several threads going at once
[18:04] <stevecooley> alphaoide did the front end
[18:04] <Podz> he doesn't _want_ to, but it's getting daft now.
[18:04] <photomatt_lap> let's try to break it up, give me one moment
[18:04] <photomatt_lap> * scammers stealing content, setting up adsense theme sites
[18:04] <photomatt_lap> * maintaining the resource is time-intensive
[18:05] <photomatt_lap> * no compensation in money or recognition for volunteers
[18:05] <photomatt_lap> any more?
[18:05] <stevecooley> that's pretty much it
[18:05] <Podz> the compensation is not an issue. it's the first two.
[18:05] <stevecooley> recognition's always nice, but yes, the first two primarily :)
[18:06] <photomatt_lap> damn, I was about to promise fame and fortune
[18:06] <stevecooley> hahahaha
[18:06] <stevecooley> ha
[18:06] <stevecooley> well, the backend it kind of cool, if anyone wants it to poke around with
[18:06] <Podz> but I think it is splogger territory. here's another about to start: http://wordpress.org/support/topic/66978?replies=7
[18:06] <stevecooley> the front end is definitely cool, joshua did a great job with the three views
[18:07] <stevecooley> I don't know if joshua wants to open his code up to public view, but you can certainly have mine
[18:07] <Podz> all we can do in the forums is encourage people to go to the ad-free sites
[18:08] <stevecooley> I feel like we did a great job, and it's sad to see so much work just.. vaporize
[18:08] <photomatt_lap> okay
[18:08] <photomatt_lap> I guess my thoughts are
[18:08] <photomatt_lap> (this'll take a moment to get out)
[18:08] <photomatt_lap> people are going to steal content, regardless
[18:09] <stevecooley> any large aggregated block of purified content, yes
[18:09] <photomatt_lap> in terms of things we have control over, we can make sure they're not promoted, warn people to stay away, and push heavily the official stuff
[18:09] <photomatt_lap> there is also a legal option, if they're misusing the WP name, but that could be expensive and/or bullyish and I'd rather stay away from that
[18:09] <photomatt_lap> I think the theme directory is an absolutely invaluable resource
[18:10] <Podz> I'm surprised some authors are massively annoyed either
[18:10] <photomatt_lap> it represents some really awesome colloboration and effort on part of folks not directly involved with WP development
[18:10] <photomatt_lap> I'd be really sad if it died
[18:10] <photomatt_lap> and I think the community would be worse off too
[18:10] <photomatt_lap> especially if that leaves the only resources as the spammy site
[18:10] <photomatt_lap> s
[18:11] <photomatt_lap> or the codex list, which is basically unusable
[18:11] <gsnedders> can they legally use the themes for profit? I guess that depends on what license the theme is under
[18:11] <photomatt_lap> so to the second problem, taking lots of time
[18:11] <Podz> true - but Shadow was about the one person who did it. It needs more prople who will genuinely help out a lot.
[18:11] <photomatt_lap> could better tools streamline the process? make it more author-driven or wiki-like?
[18:11] <photomatt_lap> could the load be spread more evenly?
[18:12] <stevecooley> probably
[18:12] <gsnedders> wouldn't you still need someone to verify it?
[18:12] <photomatt_lap> lots of people who want to volunteer but aren't technical might be willing to help with theme categorization or something
[18:12] <gsnedders> but that's minimal
[18:12] <gsnedders> and not very technical
[18:12] <Podz> it was also getting authors to submit correctly
[18:12] <photomatt_lap> there is also a topic we've touched on before, which is "good" and "bad" themes
[18:12] <photomatt_lap> ie, ones that have the proper hooks, work in browsers, etc
[18:12] <mumbles> photomatt_lap - undersginged was working
[18:13] <mumbles> on something
[18:13] <stevecooley> well, sort of. Verifying a theme works means understanding what the theme is supposed to do
[18:13] <stevecooley> yes, exactly
[18:13] <photomatt_lap> wp-themes crashed a burned pretty badly
[18:13] <photomatt_lap> because there is almost no overlap between people who know SVN and people who do themes
[18:13] <gsnedders> you could automatically check for some things like wp_head, I suppose, and just raise flags in some admin/mod panel.
[18:14] <Podz> many would not even do this: http://themes.wordpress.net/wrc-blog/submit/
[18:14] <photomatt_lap> I can throw in another data point too: I clean up the code and verify things for every theme we have on WP.com, there's no reason that work shouldn't be shared
[18:14] <mumbles> photomatt_lap - undersgined and someone elses site - http://webdesignbook.net/themes/
[18:14] <photomatt_lap> so what are some ideas?
[18:15] <Podz> you have at least one theme being sold on gallery.wordpress.com
[18:15] <photomatt_lap> http://www.templatemonster.com/ is selling themes too
[18:15] <photomatt_lap> I actually don't have a problem with that
[18:15] <photomatt_lap> as long as they are people's original work
[18:15] <stevecooley> would even installing something like bad behavior help block the IP address abusing the site?
[18:16] <photomatt_lap> stevecooley: possibly, but then you're in an arms race
[18:16] <gsnedders> BB has a list of acceptable UAs, which can become problematic :\
[18:17] <photomatt_lap> someone could create a site just like wordpress.org and sell WP or put ads all over it
[18:17] <photomatt_lap> but even if they did, it would flop because wp.org is such a great resource for the basics (what is wp, downloading) that people never look elsewhere
[18:18] <mumbles> for themes ,
[18:18] <photomatt_lap> could the same be done for themes? obviously there is a vacuum
[18:18] <photomatt_lap> for themes and plugins, wp.org sucks
[18:18] <photomatt_lap> probably because it's too static
[18:18] <mumbles> if there is thing like themes.wordpress.net but maintiaed bytheme righteres ?
[18:18] <photomatt_lap> beyond the forums, it isn't open enough
[18:19] <mumbles> and have it linked to in evey wp install, and on the wp.org site ?
[18:19] <stevecooley> the best I can do is offer the code I wrote up for adoption, unfortunately my time is fairly constrained
[18:19] <photomatt_lap> we already have a link in every install to wp.org/extend/themes/
[18:20] <photomatt_lap> stevecooley: what exactly does your code do?
[18:20] <stevecooley> the good news is that the code I wrote should be able to get you ready to pick up where I left off just by installing it, activating it, then hitting the "check db" link
[18:20] <photomatt_lap> I wasn't clear on the distinction between your part and joshua's
[18:20] <stevecooley> ok, it's a really basic set of tools. it's a table of themes data, and a table of tags
[18:20] <stevecooley> Joshua did all the front end code to view the themes
[18:21] <stevecooley> my part handled all the wp-admin side of maintaining the data
[18:21] <stevecooley> my part scans the themes folder for new themes, based on mod-date
[18:21] <photomatt_lap> okay, so it's a giant wordpress install
[18:21] <stevecooley> when it finds a new folder or a modified folder, it scans the folder, looking for the style.css file, and slerps the data out of that
[18:21] <photomatt_lap> with all the themes installed
[18:22] <stevecooley> yeah
[18:22] <photomatt_lap> pretty cool
[18:22] <photomatt_lap> is shadow here?
[18:22] <stevecooley> once you have the style.css data in mysql, adding tags is easy...
[18:22] <stevecooley> that's how we're able to categorize them into "left side bar", "right sidebar" , etc
[18:23] <stevecooley> but Shadow's part was the human element
[18:23] <stevecooley> as per the http://themes.wordpress.net/wrc-blog/submit/ page
[18:23] <stevecooley> which is kind of the missing element, automated validation and submission
[18:24] <photomatt_lap> I don't know a way around the human element
[18:24] <photomatt_lap> besides just putting more people on it
[18:24] <photomatt_lap> so it's less of a burden for all
[18:25] <mumbles> stevecooley - wasent sommeone workin g on the automated validation bit ?
[18:25] <stevecooley> Thus the impasse
[18:25] <mumbles> and also have it take a screenshot of the website ?
[18:25] <stevecooley> mumbles, if someone was, I was unaware of it
[18:25] <mumbles> stevecooley one sec i think it was undersigned
[18:25] <mumbles> ill try and find the link
[18:26] <stevecooley> well with the 2.0 new functionality, we were kind of expecting that in the folder with the theme and were searching for that as well
[18:26] <stevecooley> automatically
[18:26] <stevecooley> (screenshot)
[18:26] <photomatt_lap> a lot still don't have it though
[18:27] <mumbles> stevecooley - http://webdesignbook.net/themes/
[18:27] <mumbles> i know hes working on something , dont quite know of what hes hopeing it will do
[18:28] <photomatt_lap> when I looked at webdesignbook earlier it had a crazy amount of adsense on it
[18:28] <stevecooley> huh
[18:28] <Podz> mumbles, that site has ads
[18:28] <photomatt_lap> and I'm assuming that's who podz was saying was stealing data
[18:28] <photomatt_lap> it looked really spammy
[18:28] <mumbles> i do know that it checks for validation of the site , and takes a snapshot
[18:28] * Joins: _johannes
[18:28] <Podz> not stealing. Just using in a fashion that I think goes against how authors would expect and users to expect
[18:28] <mumbles> ?
[18:29] <mdawaffe> Who is http://webdesignbook.net/themes/ ?
[18:29] <mumbles> rereads
[18:29] <photomatt_lap> it looks like it's a default theme now
[18:29] <mumbles> mdawaffe - undersigned and someone else i think
[18:29] <mdawaffe> well I know someone else :)
[18:29] <photomatt_lap> http://whois.sc/webdesignbook.net
[18:30] <mumbles> Webdesign reference book - We are releasing a book with about 150 of the greatest webdesigns. Come and submit your own work for the book! <<<
[18:30] <stevecooley> Ooh! ;)
[18:30] <mdawaffe> photomatt_lap: yeah, I was more looking for the human element :)
[18:30] <Podz> doesn't say that on a site
[18:30] <photomatt_lap> okay anyway
[18:31] <Podz> either way, human help is needed for it to grow
[18:31] <photomatt_lap> stevecooley: so your time is limited for developing the code?
[18:31] <stevecooley> yes sir
[18:31] <mumbles> Podz - yeh i also think hes trying to get its own donaim name
[18:32] <stevecooley> also, I think this is probably a good time for someone closer to the codebase pick it up and see what I'm doing inefficiently, or incorrectly
[18:32] <stevecooley> as far as plugin dev goes
[18:32] <stevecooley> this was my first plugin
[18:32] <photomatt_lap> okay, over the next week I'll do some work to see if we can address this with something better on wp.org
[18:32] <photomatt_lap> stevecooley: I'll take a look at the code
[18:33] <photomatt_lap> let's put this on the agenda for next week
[18:33] <photomatt_lap> next item: "Meetup time - drop back to 10:00PM BST? (or all the way back to 9PM, where it was a while ago?) --Geoffers 23:06, 29 Mar 2006 (BST)"
[18:34] <photomatt_lap> any thoughts?
[18:34] <stevecooley> what time does that make it pdt?
[18:34] <photomatt_lap> I don't know what BST is
[18:34] <gsnedders> GMT+1
[18:34] <gsnedders> British Summer Time
[18:34] <photomatt_lap> what time is it there now?
[18:35] <gsnedders> 23:34
[18:35] <mumbles> 11:34
[18:35] <photomatt_lap> so pdt is -9
[18:35] <photomatt_lap> an hour earlier
[18:35] <gsnedders> it's the change from winter to summer time
[18:35] <stevecooley> so, 1pm pacific
[18:35] <gsnedders> yet keeping the meetup at the same time GMT, not taking into account summer time
[18:35] <photomatt_lap> I'd be open to 1pm pacific/ 9 pm UTC
[18:35] <mdawaffe> US changes this weekend, doesn't it?
[18:36] <photomatt_lap> really?
[18:36] <stevecooley> damn you, farmers!!
[18:36] <photomatt_lap> that's going to mess me up since I'm travelling
[18:36] <gsnedders> UK changed last weekend
[18:36] <mdawaffe> anyone know?
[18:36] <Podz> mdawaffe, it does, yes
[18:36] <mdawaffe> yeah - april 2
[18:36] <mdawaffe> thanks Podz :)
[18:36] <photomatt_lap> let's do a quick vote, if you'd like the time to be earlier than it is now type +1
[18:37] <Podz> +1
[18:37] <gsnedders> +1
[18:37] <stevecooley> +1
[18:37] <mikelittle> +1
[18:37] <mumbles> +1
[18:37] <mdawaffe> +1
[18:37] <photomatt_lap> see we have a strong british contingent ;)
[18:37] <gsnedders> :)
[18:37] <stevecooley> lol :)
[18:37] <photomatt_lap> any -1s?
[18:37] <mikelittle> Yep
[18:37] <stevecooley> I was born there, so, maybe that's why
[18:38] <photomatt_lap> okay, let's move it earlier
[18:38] <stevecooley> I'm sympathetic to the vote
[18:38] <gsnedders> photomatt_lap: I really ought to be in bed, as I've got ME (CFS) so staying up this late is rather annoying (I'm only up now for other reasons)
[18:38] <photomatt_lap> let's avoid saying actual times right now
[18:38] <photomatt_lap> we can do it anywhere from 1-3 hours earlier
[18:38] <photomatt_lap> so quick vote, how many hours earlier you would like it, type 1,2, or3
[18:38] <mumbles> If anyone cares i get back form collegearound 9:30 gmt
[18:39] <PotterSys> 1
[18:39] <mikelittle> 1
[18:39] <gsnedders> 2
[18:39] <mumbles> 1
[18:39] <stevecooley> 1
[18:39] <photomatt_lap> 1
[18:39] <photomatt_lap> okay
[18:39] <mdawaffe> wait - 1s and 2s mean different things to different people
[18:39] <gsnedders> well, I'm clearly outnumbered.
[18:39] <photomatt_lap> totally unscientific, but let's try moving it an hour earlier
[18:39] <photomatt_lap> mdawaffe: how so?
[18:39] <mdawaffe> 1pm PST is a 2 hour change as of next week
[18:40] <photomatt_lap> that's why we're not talking in timezones, just diff from current time
[18:40] <gsnedders> the thing is, in the UK, we're in summer time, in the US, you aren't.
[18:40] <mdawaffe> right: just wanted people to realize that a 2 hour change isn't noon pst anymore
[18:40] <gsnedders> I'm taking GMT to be GMT, and therefore summer time to be GMT+1
[18:40] <photomatt_lap> http://webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/b.html
[18:41] <mdawaffe> perhaps everyone already knew that: anyway a 2 hour diff seems fine to me :)
[18:41] <photomatt_lap> so the new meeting time would be 9 PM GMT?
[18:41] <gsnedders> yeah
[18:41] <gsnedders> and 10PM British Summer Time
[18:42] <mikelittle> Good for me
[18:42] <photomatt_lap> "On August 8, 2005, President George W. Bush signed the Energy Policy Act of 2005. This Act changed the time change dates for Daylight Saving Time in the U.S. Beginning in 2007, DST will begin on the second Sunday of March and end the first Sunday of November. The Secretary of Energy will report the impact of this change to Congress. Congress retains the right to revert the Daylight Saving Time back to the 2005 time schedule once the Department
[18:42] <gsnedders> GMT != British time
[18:42] <mumbles> ye h
[18:42] <photomatt_lap> wtf?
[18:42] <gsnedders> GMT == British Winter Time
[18:42] <gsnedders> British Summer Time is GMT + 1
[18:42] <mdawaffe> photomatt_lap: you didn't hear? Software updates abound for 2007
[18:43] <photomatt_lap> glad we don't have dst support in WP :)
[18:43] <gsnedders> millennium bug v. 2
[18:43] <gsnedders> :)
[18:43] <mumbles> looks like i might get a job at that time then
[18:43] <Podz> we have weird time. cross the channel one month and time is fine, do it another and you are out by an hour
[18:43] <photomatt_lap> that is probably the silliest thing I've ever heard
[18:44] <gsnedders> it changed throughout the EU in 96
[18:44] <gsnedders> unifying the times
[18:44] <photomatt_lap> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Policy_Act_of_2005#Change_to_daylight_saving_time
[18:44] <photomatt_lap> anyway
[18:44] <photomatt_lap> tagent!
[18:45] <gsnedders> tagent?
[18:45] <mumbles> tangent ?
[18:45] <photomatt_lap> okay I updated the wiki page
[18:45] <photomatt_lap> it's official
[18:45] <photomatt_lap> because if you read it on the internet, it must be true
[18:46] <gsnedders> :D
[18:46] <gsnedders> mind if I quote you on that?
[18:46] <photomatt_lap> only if it's on the net
[18:46] <gsnedders> alrighty.
[18:46] <photomatt_lap> any other issues people want to bring up before we close out?
[18:46] <PotterSys> what's up with Blicki?
[18:47] * gsnedders is now known as gsnedders|sleep
[18:47] <photomatt_lap> the core functionality is done, it could probably use a little more UI love
[18:47] <mumbles> how about wp.com donaim forwading ?
[18:47] <photomatt_lap> rboren got distracted by secure admin and some MU stuff
[18:47] * Quits: gsnedders|sleep
[18:47] <PotterSys> photomatt_lap: ok :)
[18:48] <mumbles> http://matt.wordpress.com/2006/03/28/hint-hint/
[18:48] <photomatt_lap> PotterSys: if you want to send in patches, send them to ryan
[18:48] <photomatt_lap> mumbles: we have domain parking working
[18:48] <photomatt_lap> including cross-domain authentication
[18:48] <photomatt_lap> so if you're logged in on wordpress.com, you're logged in on blog.donncha.net or any wp.com hosted blog
[18:48] <photomatt_lap> which was very tricky
[18:49] <photomatt_lap> probably not going to make it public until (1) our billing system is done (2) we have a way for people to buy domains
[18:49] <mumbles> how much would it cost ?
[18:49] <photomatt_lap> dunno
[18:49] <photomatt_lap> if we sell domains, they'll probably be a round number like 10/year, and include parking
[18:49] <Podz> your soul mumbles, your soul :)
[18:50] <photomatt_lap> parking by itself? maybe 5/year
[18:50] <photomatt_lap> and your firstborn
[18:50] <photomatt_lap> but paypal doesn't have a firstborn api, so we just snuck it in the TOS
[18:50] <stevecooley> or a limb if you have no offspring ?
[18:51] <mumbles> you might be waiting a while for that one
[18:51] <masquerade> if I don't have a firstborn, will my parent's second born do?
[18:51] <stevecooley> hey, that me!
[18:51] <stevecooley> No!
[18:51] <photomatt_lap> stevecooley: yes but we reserve the right to pick the limb
[18:51] <mumbles> how about my brother and sister ?
[18:51] <photomatt_lap> mumbles: you might have to buy more storage for that
[18:52] <masquerade> I'll pay you to take my brother ;-)
[18:52] <photomatt_lap> heh
[18:52] <photomatt_lap> any other Qs?
[18:52] <mumbles> i just wanted my mumbles.wordpress.com account to forward to mumbles-uk.com wonders how much money he has in his paypal
[18:53] <mumbles> masquerade want to swap ?
[18:53] <masquerade> mumbles, as long as your brother doesn't (a) play guitar, (b) hog bandwidth
[18:53] <mumbles> erm .. hang on .. how old is your brother?
[18:53] <photomatt_lap> I'll be pimping WP and you guys here in toronto
[18:53] <stevecooley> Hey, thanks everyone for the ~30 minutes we spent on the themes.wordpress.net discussion :)
[18:53] <masquerade> mumbles, 13 or so
[18:53] <mumbles> masquerade ill pass
[18:53] <photomatt_lap> I mentioned mdawaffe, mikelittle, MichaelH, and Podz in an interview this morning
[18:53] <mikelittle> Cool!
[18:54] <mumbles> :p
[18:54] <Podz> scary
[18:54] <mdawaffe> ?
[18:54] <photomatt_lap> we'll see which parts make the cut
[18:54] <Podz> stevecooley, shall we try and get shadow back?
[18:54] <mumbles> if you mention me they will think about the town in swanse
[18:54] <photomatt_lap> stevecooley: thanks for the hours and hours you've spent on hte project
[18:54] <mumbles> uk guys , meetup in the sommer ?
[18:54] <mumbles> at somepoint ?
[18:54] <stevecooley> podz: I don't think we should actively close any doors, but I think he's walked out of the room for now
[18:54] <Podz> depends on cash and when
[18:55] <mumbles> summer ^
[18:55] <Podz> stevecooley, well we talk daily anyway so if he mentions it...
[18:55] <stevecooley> photomatt_lap : welcome! it's been a super learning experience on many many levels
[18:55] <photomatt_lap> Podz: do you have AIM?
[18:55] <stevecooley> podz: okidoke :)
[18:56] <Podz> photomatt_lap, I do indeed
[18:56] <Podz> podz2097 I think
[18:56] <stevecooley> we should have a wordpress hall of fame, and put Shadow in there
[18:56] <mumbles> if people need help on themes management on wp.org ask me ..
[18:56] <Podz> <--wipeout fan
[18:56] <photomatt_lap> Podz: okay I wanted to ping you on something
[18:56] <photomatt_lap> I think that's it for the meeting, have a great day/night everybody!
[18:56] <photomatt_lap> </meetup>

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