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User:Matt/2005-06-22Rawlog-dev-meetup

Jun 22 17:03:37 Firas now we can talk about mike's email
Jun 22 17:03:37 relle Now have at it devs!
Jun 22 17:03:42 skippy Reorx: what are your thoughts re: wp-admin
Jun 22 17:04:00 skippy Podz: fair enough; but the distinction will grow thin over time.
Jun 22 17:04:23 mikelittle mdawaffe: No not at all, but it's unlikely to happen.I don't believe the dev's knowledge of svn and revisio control is good enough to manage that easily.
Jun 22 17:04:38 Podz true....but the day will happen when WP=bloat and along will come a snappy litle app ..
Jun 22 17:04:55 * Strings28 (user@71-208-44-147.hlrn.qwest.net) has left #wordpress-meetup
Jun 22 17:05:07 skippy Podz: ... maybe? I think the development has been pretty well organized to prevent a lot of bloat.
Jun 22 17:05:10 Firas Anthony: are you familiar with svn?
Jun 22 17:05:19 Anthony no
Jun 22 17:05:20 mdawaffe mikelittle: fair enough
Jun 22 17:05:27 Anthony i can become very easily though
Jun 22 17:05:33 skippy Podz: it took me a while, but I now respect Matt's aversion to rolling too much into the core.
Jun 22 17:05:50 Reorx Sorry... Reading mikelittle's email. Seems more important that specific "how to get rid of collapseable panels" issue.
Jun 22 17:05:54 Firas Anthony: can you email me and once i get a framework up i'll get back to you? fd at firasd dot org--gimme a week or so
Jun 22 17:06:04 Anthony alright
Jun 22 17:06:32 skippy for the record, I realized it was a one-man show when Matt introduced nofollow with _no_ discussion.
Jun 22 17:06:37 Firas only matt has the authority to say what goes on in /extend/plugins but we can surely make wppm2 beat update mozilla org hands down :)
Jun 22 17:06:41 Podz skippy:: I won't upgrade again, that I know.
Jun 22 17:06:56 skippy Podz: you won't upgrade ... from 1.5.1.2 ?
Jun 22 17:07:00 Podz no
Jun 22 17:07:09 skippy why not?
Jun 22 17:07:13 skippy oh, for the admin
Jun 22 17:07:40 Podz I see not a single reason to do so. Everything being added is nothing for me, therefore it is bloat
Jun 22 17:07:48 skippy Podz: ah. Fair enough.
Jun 22 17:07:55 Podz complexity is not a total answer
Jun 22 17:07:59 jalenack Podz, I agree
Jun 22 17:08:09 Podz 1.2.2 was the last blog version
Jun 22 17:08:11 jalenack it hasn't impressed me much
Jun 22 17:08:35 skippy I understand your point of view, Podz; but folks like my mom will desperately appreciate an improved admin posting interface.
Jun 22 17:08:52 Reorx The concept of "improved" is also up for debate.
Jun 22 17:08:53 Firas mikelittle: thanks for posting that
Jun 22 17:09:07 Anthony there needs to be two versions of wordpress
Jun 22 17:09:09 skippy Reorx: improved == WYSIWYG, at least.
Jun 22 17:09:10 Podz from now it's different territory, different support. The forum questions have changed massively since 1.5 and will continue to do so. The forums cannot cope in their current form
Jun 22 17:09:12 skippy for her.
Jun 22 17:09:13 Firas Anthony: No
Jun 22 17:09:19 Anthony hardcore geek that wants a site, and one for the bloggers
Jun 22 17:09:19 mikelittle skippy: I agree, but are pretty drag 'n' drop expanding dockable widgets anything to do with better usability?
Jun 22 17:09:20 Anthony lol
Jun 22 17:09:41 Anthony or at least the option for some of the stuff to be taken out, i can understand where they are getting at
Jun 22 17:09:42 Reorx WYSIWYG is not necessarily an improvement.
Jun 22 17:09:52 Firas Reorx: how come?
Jun 22 17:09:55 Anthony i use it all anyways, so I could care less for myself
Jun 22 17:10:07 skippy Reorx: not for us; but for someone like my mom, who loses the HTML cheatsheet I made for her, it will help her.
Jun 22 17:10:18 Firas Reorx: the vast majority of users should never need to lean <a href> or or
Jun 22 17:11:05 Podz point is that is will not be a plugin. If I don;t use it, then it is bloat. it IS going in
Jun 22 17:11:08 skippy I appreciate the "options are bad" point of view. If a fully seperate wp-admin theme is impractical, I think admin options to turn off the "pretty" fluff is important
Jun 22 17:11:23 Anthony i agree with skippy
Jun 22 17:11:30 relle BTW: I'm logging this and will post it on Matt's user page.
Jun 22 17:11:37 Firas lWell, WYSIWYG will surely be turn offable
Jun 22 17:11:46 Reorx I would want a "fluff off" option, too.
Jun 22 17:11:47 skippy please, relle. Were Matt here, I'd say the same still
Jun 22 17:11:53 relle Reorx: so it will be "recorded".
Jun 22 17:12:12 Firas Ok, here's the thing
Jun 22 17:12:21 Firas what's the draggable widgets harming?
Jun 22 17:12:30 Reorx They're really slow.
Jun 22 17:12:42 skippy even after you've locked them in place?
Jun 22 17:12:43 jalenack they don't look good at all
Jun 22 17:12:43 Firas ah
Jun 22 17:12:50 skippy I know, we rewrite the admin section in Flash! =)
Jun 22 17:13:00 Reorx Before you locak them into place. They bounch around as the javascript executes.
Jun 22 17:13:02 Podz are they good for people with impaired vision ? impaired hand coordination ?
Jun 22 17:13:17 Firas skippy: actually, that might not be a bad idea for a third party
Jun 22 17:13:18 jalenack rearranging them doesn't really mean anything
Jun 22 17:13:38 Anthony is there any plans to use ajax?
Jun 22 17:13:47 jalenack most of the widgets are about one line each, so it doesn't make much difference to + or - them
Jun 22 17:13:53 jalenack Anthony... why?
Jun 22 17:14:02 skippy Aside from "Wow, cool! Does YOUR blog do this?!" -- how many people will find value in re-arranging the panels?
Jun 22 17:14:05 Reorx Rearranging and expending/collapsing are reasonably speedy. It's the initial load that ain't great.
Jun 22 17:14:30 jalenack ya
Jun 22 17:14:32 Reorx The real advantage here is that the post editor is consolidated into one physical page instead of two.
Jun 22 17:14:37 Anthony jalenack - it wasn't a why question
Jun 22 17:14:54 Anthony there are certain things that it could be used for, but i guess some would consider it "bloating"
Jun 22 17:15:06 Podz skippy:: I see this stuff purely as a "MT admin looks nicer" thing
Jun 22 17:15:09 Firas Reorx: what do you think about the hackers thread of just putting a save button rather than the 2 or 3 each screen currently has?
Jun 22 17:15:23 * Firas isn't sure if owen is on wp-hackers anymore
Jun 22 17:15:37 Reorx I'm not.
Jun 22 17:15:39 Firas I wish Matt would chime in on that thread
Jun 22 17:15:51 skippy Podz: Interestingly enough, a friend of mine came to WP _specifically_ because the WP admin section is all text and CSS -- no images. It loads super snappy on his 14.4 dialup
Jun 22 17:16:09 Podz and thats why I like it to
Jun 22 17:16:10 skippy Reorx: I saw only that you disconnected -- did you post why?
Jun 22 17:16:16 mikelittle Another consideration is that I can currently post from a lightweight browser (e.g. lynx) that's not gonna be true of the new interface.
Jun 22 17:16:41 Reorx skippy: Nope. I didn't. But I think one of the reasons why might now be clear.
Jun 22 17:16:44 Podz does it make it better, or just make the OOoooooh factor go up?
Jun 22 17:16:50 Firas Reorx: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web.wordpress.devel/2744
Jun 22 17:17:01 * jalenack much prefers the 1.5 write panel
Jun 22 17:17:01 skippy Reorx: fair enough.
Jun 22 17:17:08 Reorx I like that about the WP admin too, light and clean. But that doesn't sell blog software. Or something.
Jun 22 17:17:29 Podz it DOES make for more support problems
Jun 22 17:17:32 Firas http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web.wordpress.devel/2746
Jun 22 17:17:58 Reorx Hmm. I don't know. You would certainly hav eto move the post status radios closer to the save button.
Jun 22 17:18:26 Firas mikelittle: if the new admin interface won't work from lynx, that's an important issue and should be discussed as you said
Jun 22 17:18:26 skippy Podz: which makes for more support?
Jun 22 17:18:38 Podz more complex admin
Jun 22 17:19:07 skippy Podz: does "more complex admin" mean "movable widgets" or "no save+continue" button? (just making sure I understand fully)
Jun 22 17:19:11 Podz we get no questions about it right now - that will change won't it. Other questions will not reduce so forum load increased
Jun 22 17:19:23 Podz yes
Jun 22 17:19:32 skippy yes, both?
Jun 22 17:20:13 Firas Podz: the movable widgets is matt's thing, no save+continue is my/skippy's thing, the former is official in the code right now
Jun 22 17:20:24 Podz this will be a significant change. No doubt pushed through with something to make people upgrade. Such a massive change has big implications for support
Jun 22 17:20:27 skippy that's a good observation, Podz. Aside from someone who accidentally deleted their saved post's contents and then re-saved, I've not seen any wp-admin questions
Jun 22 17:20:59 mikelittle I would have thought that desktop blogging applications fit the role of WYSIWYG-editing-before-posting need far better than a web based tool.
Jun 22 17:21:16 skippy alas, XMLRPC posting is crippled.
Jun 22 17:21:27 skippy XMLRPC posting doesn't trigger the proper plugins.
Jun 22 17:21:35 Podz why ?
Jun 22 17:21:40 skippy and the apps all seem flakey. And no one knows what an XMLRPC endpoint is
Jun 22 17:21:43 Reorx Hence the prior discussion on improving and augmenting support for those.
Jun 22 17:22:03 mikelittle So, that should be fixed. Rather than replaced?
Jun 22 17:22:34 skippy Podz: can you (without much effort) make a list of five things that are generally consdired "broken" in the forums? That is, what gets lots of support questions?
Jun 22 17:22:42 Reorx Well, it should be fixed. I think there is also room for improvement.
Jun 22 17:22:42 skippy I know blog-by-email is flakey at best.
Jun 22 17:23:00 Firas everyone wants better image and media upload handling right?
Jun 22 17:23:04 skippy yes
Jun 22 17:23:06 Podz rewrite rules / Image / Images / More Images /
Jun 22 17:23:07 skippy Absolutely.
Jun 22 17:23:09 Reorx Gah! I finally get a camera phone and blog-by-email is flakey.
Jun 22 17:23:20 Firas Podz: rewriterules?
Jun 22 17:23:22 Firas what about them?
Jun 22 17:23:29 skippy Reorx: flakey insofar as people either succeed right away, or they never do
Jun 22 17:23:57 Podz people want to do strange things, or have wierd permalink structures.
Jun 22 17:24:05 skippy Image upload; image browsing; image inserting -- those should get priority
Jun 22 17:24:07 Reorx skippy: Well, it works, but not with the photos. I had a thing (replaced the old file) that did, and I don't know where that is now. Overwritten by 1.5.
Jun 22 17:24:12 Reorx Mmm... Images...
Jun 22 17:24:19 Podz But Image handling to a point is in 1.5 and it's been ignored
Jun 22 17:24:44 Podz remove it, or improve it. One or the other. Right now it's worse than half-assed
Jun 22 17:24:49 Firas even if permissions don't let you upload images
Jun 22 17:24:58 Firas you should be able to scan a directory for jpegs
Jun 22 17:25:06 Reorx Firas: That's acutally a huge problem. Bigger than you would imagine.
Jun 22 17:25:11 Firas and insert them be clicking on a thumbnail
Jun 22 17:25:14 Reorx Try explaining chmod to my mom.
Jun 22 17:25:15 mikelittle Another decision made without discussion. No-one wold have agreed to move it out of the editing flow.
Jun 22 17:25:17 Reorx "Eh?"
Jun 22 17:25:35 Firas Reorx: yeah, but the question is
Jun 22 17:25:37 Podz mikelittle:: true
Jun 22 17:25:45 skippy WordPress should set permissions appropriately on all files it writes to disk.
Jun 22 17:25:49 Firas should that mean wp shouldn't support image handling at all?
Jun 22 17:26:00 * skippy realizes he should fix his gravatar plugin to do the same..
Jun 22 17:26:08 Firas I know some fine plugins out there do this wonderfully
Jun 22 17:26:17 Reorx skippy: Difficult on files that are supposed to go into directories that WP has no permission to write in.
Jun 22 17:26:21 mikelittle I would vote for something like iimage browser moving into core/
Jun 22 17:26:27 Firas but parts of them should be rolled into the core
Jun 22 17:26:31 Firas mikelittle: exactly
Jun 22 17:27:06 Podz every blog uses images. Not every blogger wants a drag/drop interface
Jun 22 17:27:12 skippy Reorx: WP should check perms before writing, and throw a sensible error. I did that for my gravatars plugin. It's a lot of boring code, but it works.
Jun 22 17:27:24 Reorx skippy: true
Jun 22 17:27:34 Reorx You guys realize that last I looked I was on the hook for this feature in the 1.6 Features list on Codex?
Jun 22 17:27:37 Firas Reorx: once an image has been uploaded even via ftp surely wp can facilitate insertion
Jun 22 17:27:57 Firas on the hook as in?
Jun 22 17:28:05 skippy Firas: making thumbnails is a pain, though, if the user sends a full-size image
Jun 22 17:28:10 Reorx As in, "scheduled and asked my Matt to write"
Jun 22 17:28:17 Firas hmmm
Jun 22 17:28:19 Reorx s/my/by
Jun 22 17:28:31 skippy Reorx: and what happened? A resounding nothing?
Jun 22 17:28:33 Firas so it's something that's to be implemented
Jun 22 17:28:38 skippy not, as in, you did nothing
Jun 22 17:28:43 skippy but no follow-up from Matt?
Jun 22 17:28:56 Reorx No... There's code. I sent him email asking some critical questions. And...
Jun 22 17:29:18 Reorx http://test.asymptomatic.net/
Jun 22 17:30:02 Reorx I tried to get some folks at #wordpress to offer opinions on it before, but no dice there, either.
Jun 22 17:30:15 Firas Reorx: post to wp-hackers?
Jun 22 17:30:27 skippy if there are real outstanding concerns for core functions, I think we should all approach matt to concentrate on those.
Jun 22 17:30:40 Reorx Firas: Probably a good idea.
Jun 22 17:30:45 mdawaffe Reorx: nice
Jun 22 17:30:48 skippy He can delegate all he wants; but the fact remains that specific advertised features need some imrpovement.
Jun 22 17:31:03 Firas Reorx: ooh, adding an image and joining it to the post meta is something i had thought of for a while
Jun 22 17:31:06 Firas is that what it does?
Jun 22 17:31:07 * Firas checks
Jun 22 17:31:21 Reorx The admin page (as you might expect) has changed significantly since I wrote this stuff.
Jun 22 17:31:34 Reorx Well, this isn't just adding an image to the post meta.
Jun 22 17:31:58 Reorx Each image has its own post-id and permalink URL. The physical location of the image is in post-meta.
Jun 22 17:32:26 Firas right, so you can access it off post-slug/image
Jun 22 17:32:28 Firas that sounds cool
Jun 22 17:32:34 Reorx Yeah.
Jun 22 17:33:11 Firas So yeah, post to wp-hackers and let's check it out :)
Jun 22 17:33:16 Reorx A lot of why this seems so hush-hush is because I wanted to get a core set of working features to comment on based on Matt's suggestions before everyone started suggesting things willy-nilly.
Jun 22 17:33:22 Firas ahh ok
Jun 22 17:33:35 skippy willy-nilly++
Jun 22 17:33:41 Reorx usually.  :)
Jun 22 17:33:49 mdawaffe Reorx: how do you reference the image from an object post? Put it's uri in post_content?
Jun 22 17:34:23 Reorx No... There are template tag functions for that. Also two new theme templates.
Jun 22 17:34:38 Reorx The reason is so that you can write descriptions for your images and also get commetns on each image.
Jun 22 17:34:57 mdawaffe but when you make a new object, how do you get the actual image into the object?
Jun 22 17:35:05 Reorx Ah.
Jun 22 17:35:06 * mdawaffe is missing something
Jun 22 17:35:21 Reorx You don't make a new object post. There is an interface for adding images to posts.
Jun 22 17:35:30 mdawaffe ah!
Jun 22 17:35:35 mdawaffe magic
Jun 22 17:35:47 Reorx This interface looks like it's adidng things to posts, but it actually creates sub-post object posts with all the data.
Jun 22 17:36:11 mdawaffe gotcha
Jun 22 17:36:14 mdawaffe I don't suppose you
Jun 22 17:36:22 mdawaffe 'll push up a screenshot when you make this more pub?
Jun 22 17:36:24 Firas Reorx: this extends to eg videos and other attachments too right?
Jun 22 17:36:33 Firas in its final form i mean
Jun 22 17:36:38 Reorx Coincidentally, this interface is integrated into the post interface, as previously requested.
Jun 22 17:37:11 Reorx I have screenshots online on my blog of certain aspects of the interface that I stole from Exhibit, but yeah, I'll all about making this stuff public when I think I've done good.
Jun 22 17:37:34 mdawaffe rawk
Jun 22 17:38:03 Reorx Firas: Yes, you should be able to define playback methods for each content type. You will also be able to pull from alternate sources, like Flickr, seemlessly through the integrated image browser.
Jun 22 17:38:28 skippy totally off-topic, here, but way back in pre-1.5 Matt rolled in "auto-save", only to roll it out. Would a seperate table for drafts (posts and pages) help make auto-save easier? And, to boot, make it possible to save draft pages?
Jun 22 17:38:37 Reorx ...provided you have a plugin that hooks WordPress' media stuff to Flickr, which I will probably end up writing just to test the concept.
Jun 22 17:39:21 Reorx Didn't the guy (Gregory?) at twilightuniverse.com make an autosave plugin that works?
Jun 22 17:39:35 skippy dunn
Jun 22 17:39:38 skippy dunno
Jun 22 17:39:50 skippy sorry, didn't mean to interrupt.
Jun 22 17:39:57 skippy your work looks awesome, Reorx.
Jun 22 17:40:03 mdawaffe Reorx: something is afoot at http://asymptomatic.net/wp : http://asymptomatic.net/wp/_categories
Jun 22 17:40:28 Reorx Thanks, skippy. Validation is something I've been missing lately.
Jun 22 17:40:28 mdawaffe just letting you know if you didn't already - no need to elaborate :)
Jun 22 17:40:44 jalenack Reorx: http://twilightuniverse.com/2005/04/twilight-autosave/
Jun 22 17:41:10 Reorx mdawafe: Yeah, that's the WP-Cache plugin in action. Woo-hoo.
Jun 22 17:41:27 Reorx Lots of issues since the server migration. All WP software. <sigh>
Jun 22 17:41:49 Reorx jalenack: Yeah, I think that's it.
Jun 22 17:45:01 Reorx Alright. Considering I had given up on this WordPress madness, and now I'm 45 minutes late from sitting with the kids, I'm calling it a day.
Jun 22 17:46:01 skippy g'night all.
Jun 22 17:46:04 skippy I'm out, too.
Jun 22 17:46:06 * skippy (~skippy@skippy.net) has left #wordpress-meetup ("Free as in Puppies!")
Jun 22 17:46:34 Firas masquerade, were you logging?
Jun 22 17:46:40 mdawaffe Reorx: seeya - nice work on the Exhibit 2.0 stuff
Jun 22 17:46:51 Firas thanks Reorx, cool stuff
Jun 22 17:48:01 Reorx Thanks guys. Hopefully it all pans out.
Jun 22 17:48:14 * Firas leaves for now
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Jun 22 18:01:02 mdawaffe damn - he's gone
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Jun 22 18:08:53 relle I'm logging.
Jun 22 18:09:00 relle Are you all done?
Jun 22 18:10:47 tunicwriter [crickets]
Jun 22 18:11:15 relle sounds like no one is home.