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IRC Meetups/2005/August/August03RawLog

[17:12] <relle> <meetup>
[17:12] <relle> PotterSys: you taking notes?
[17:12] <PotterSys> yes
[17:13] <PotterSys> the recorder is on
[17:13] <relle> Congrats to everyone for the WordPress Download turning over 450,000
[17:13] <relle> WEEEE
[17:13] <photomatt> is the agenda ready to go?
[17:13] <ringmaster> Where is that counter, again?
[17:13] <relle> yes
[17:13] <Jalenack> http://wordpress.org/download/counter/
[17:14] <relle> What's the new count now?
[17:14] <ringmaster> 454,361
[17:14] <photomatt> :)
[17:14] <relle> Wow.
[17:14] <masq|lappy> photomatt, going to have a party for half a million?
[17:14] <photomatt> probably
[17:14] <photomatt> we just had one for ryan a few weeks ago
[17:14] <tunicwriter> That counter is for all versions of 1.5, right?
[17:15] <photomatt> yes
[17:15] <relle> Or save it for million since it is turning over so fast ;-)
[17:15] <relle> party one week for 1/2 million and party for million two weeks later. Party all the time.
[17:15] <relle> hee hee
[17:15] <stevecooley> haha
[17:15] <photomatt> let's start going through the agenda
[17:15] <relle> Firas Elixir
[17:15] <photomatt> I have no idea what that is
[17:15] <stevecooley> sounds like a sports drink
[17:16] <Firas> ah, i have nothing to report about it, i'm not sure why it was stacked on top :)
[17:16] <Firas> its that directory thing i've been working on
[17:16] <relle> Please explain what it is.
[17:16] <Firas> it's just a reincarnation of wp-plugins.net with tags instead of cats etc
[17:16] <relle> and?
[17:17] <Jalenack> directory for themes and plugins, with a plugin for one click installs
[17:17] <relle> The name is undergoing changes right now.
[17:17] <Firas> that's all, i'll report more a couple weeks down the road when we have something to show :)
[17:17] <tunicwriter> Is it a reincarnation or something better? If the only change is cats to tags, I don't see the point... :\
[17:17] <photomatt> why is this not going on wordpress.org?
[17:17] <tunicwriter> Ah, one click, I shut up now.
[17:18] <relle> As extend.wordpress.org?
[17:18] <relle> or something like that?
[17:18] <masq|lappy> tunicwriter, it also interacts a bit with the wp-plugins.org repository
[17:18] <Firas> photomatt: the point is that once it's mature we can work on putting it in wp.org if you'd like, rather than developing it there
[17:18] <photomatt> gotcha
[17:18] <ringmaster> From what I understood, the software itself may be open source?
[17:18] <Firas> it's straight GPL, reusing lots of wp functions
[17:19] <photomatt> cool
[17:19] <photomatt> 1.6 status
[17:19] <Jalenack> and jefte is designing it..
[17:19] <photomatt> "it's rocking along"
[17:19] <Jalenack> ok
[17:19] <masq|lappy> photomatt, nice set of commits last night
[17:19] <masq|lappy> or this morning, whichever it was
[17:20] <photomatt> just cleaning up some bugs the gardeners had highlighted
[17:20] <photomatt> I talked to Ryan last night, he'll be back in a bit, he's in the middle of a move
[17:20] <photomatt> he'll be moving to california, actually :)
[17:20] <tunicwriter> bay area?
[17:21] <photomatt> roughly
[17:21] <tunicwriter> shibby
[17:21] <photomatt> BBC Announcement
[17:21] <photomatt> what's that?
[17:21] <relle> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4737671.stm
[17:21] <relle> BBC mentioned WordPress
[17:21] * relle faints
[17:21] <relle> Just a little mention but it was still a cool find.
[17:21] <relle> That's it.
[17:21] <photomatt> we're also in this article: http://www.technorati.com/weblog/2005/08/34.html
[17:22] <tunicwriter> Oh! Look! Mentioned before MT, but after all the free-hosted stuff...
[17:22] <mikelittle> It seems to have stemmed from a technorati blog post, and unfortunately billed WP as a blogging service.
[17:22] <relle> http://www.sifry.com/alerts/archives/000332.html and here
[17:22] <relle> For State of the Blogosphere.
[17:22] <relle> Which is probably the same article.
[17:22] <mikelittle> I've seen the story mirrored all over the net. It even made it into my local free paper today! But no mention of WP
[17:23] <photomatt> we also got a shoutout from MySQL - http://www.mysql.com/news-and-events/news/article_925.html
[17:23] <relle> Call them up and complain!
[17:23] <relle> Very exciting stuff.
[17:24] <relle> The PR team is collecting these so let us know when you find them.
[17:24] <Firas> wow
[17:24] <Firas> mysql?
[17:24] <Firas> congrats!
[17:25] <Firas> mentioned alongside: Wikipedia, Craigslist, Feedster, Flickr, &c
[17:25] <stevecooley> good company to be in
[17:25] <ringmaster> When my mom knows what WordPress is without telling her first, then I'll be really impressed.
[17:25] <relle> Next? IRC
[17:25] <photomatt> I got a note from Marten Mickos earlier today, hopefully we can follow up on that and get some MySQL resources helping us out
[17:26] <photomatt> what are we discussing about IRC?
[17:27] <tunicwriter> Was the matter ever really resolved?
[17:27] <relle> In the meeting last week, there was a discussion about an "invasion" from a bad person and the need for volunteer ops to kick those people out.
[17:27] <relle> Guidelines were to be written on what that meant.
[17:27] <relle> Were they?
[17:28] <photomatt> ops wouldn't have made a difference
[17:28] <photomatt> in situations like that someone from freenode has to handle it
[17:28] <masq|lappy> I think they mean in the general invasion of an impolite person more than that exact situation
[17:28] <tunicwriter> indeed.
[17:29] <masq|lappy> I don't think we'll see that situation again, I sent the VERSION string that the software used to send that attack has to freenode admins, so the attackers will have trouble getting on int he first place
[17:30] <relle> so is the issue of ops in the channel now dead?
[17:32] <tunicwriter> We need something in place, I think (not that my opinion is worth a great deal). Matt isn't always there, so therefore there's no op there if someone gets particularly... "impolite," as masq|lappy put it...
[17:33] <photomatt> okay let's move on
[17:33] <relle> wait
[17:33] <relle> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/08/02/tech/main713494.shtml
[17:33] <relle> The Blog Born every second article is not on CBS NEws
[17:33] <relle> With a link to WordPress in the article.
[17:33] <relle> WEEEE
[17:33] <relle> sorry.
[17:33] <relle> Just brought to my attention.
[17:33] <photomatt> wow technorati is getting some amazing distribution
[17:34] <Firas> good point
[17:34] <relle> Oh, BBC. ;-)
[17:34] <relle> or BBC ;-)
[17:34] <photomatt> I guess it was smart to partner with them early
[17:34] <relle> good work.
[17:34] <photomatt> Backup Week
[17:34] <photomatt> is that still going on?
[17:35] <relle> Well, there is still questions and stuff on the forum.
[17:35] <relle> Podz?
[17:35] <relle> The "week" is over but we're leaving the banner up on the Codex through the week.
[17:35] <Podz> there will always be questions on the forum, but the stickies have been removed
[17:36] <photomatt> about promoting things on the Codex
[17:36] <relle> There were over 3000 technorati links to wordpress backups which is good spreading of the word.
[17:36] <photomatt> let's remember that most people are going there looking for something specific, rather than as a general portal
[17:37] <photomatt> crawler for powered by wordpress
[17:38] <mdawaffe> is this the wordsmote (or whatever) thing?
[17:38] <photomatt> nope
[17:38] <mdawaffe> building a DB of all WP sites?
[17:38] <tunicwriter> This is in reference to that post on wp-hackers?
[17:39] <Jalenack> (just added an item to the agenda)
[17:40] <photomatt> I guess so
[17:40] <photomatt> I don't know who added it
[17:40] <relle> I did.
[17:40] <photomatt> but I'll be happy to make Ping-O-Matic data to anyone interested in doing a blog census
[17:40] <relle> That's why.
[17:41] <photomatt> so contact me if there's interest
[17:41] <photomatt> moving on: fundraising effort for fall
[17:41] <relle> We need a good fundraising event for the fall and the fundraising and events team is looking for help and ideas.
[17:41] <relle> Please! No wet t-shirt contests!
[17:41] <relle> ;-)
[17:42] <relle> http://codex.wordpress.org/Fundraising_and_Promotions
[17:42] <Firas> that never gets old huh? :p
[17:42] <relle> hee hee
[17:42] <photomatt> honestly with regards to fundraising, perhaps we should hold off on it
[17:42] <photomatt> simply because we don't need any money
[17:42] <photomatt> and I'd rather save fundraising for a time when/if it's needed
[17:42] <relle> photomatt: it takes TIME to create a good fundraiser and money will always be needed.
[17:43] <relle> Getting people used to giving money once or twice a year is a guarantee of money in the future.
[17:43] <relle> So put it in a good investment account.
[17:43] Auto away:� 30mins of no action
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[17:43] <relle> The time you need the money will be overnight, not with weeks of planning.
[17:43] <stevecooley> well..are you registered as a 503c ? or whatever?
[17:43] <tunicwriter> I agree with relle on that one. It takes planning, research, planning, pr, planning... planning...
[17:43] <relle> And it is good publicity and gets a lot of people involved.
[17:43] <photomatt> stevecooley: no we're not
[17:43] <photomatt> which complicates things
[17:43] <stevecooley> yes, definitely
[17:43] <relle> What is it?
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[17:44] <relle> What is the incorporation status?
[17:44] <photomatt> right now it's a matt-oh-three-cee
[17:44] <stevecooley> putting it in a good investment account would constitute taxable income for matt
[17:44] <Firas> any plans to get wp incorporated as a 503?
[17:44] <Firas> that'd make lots of sense
[17:44] <relle> oh.
[17:44] <relle> Well. That kills a lot of things.
[17:44] <photomatt> non profits are a major PITA, and somewhat limiting. I think we should look to Mozilla
[17:45] <relle> and they are?
[17:45] <relle> LLC?
[17:45] <Firas> they just made a taxable spinoff
[17:45] <tunicwriter> They are not-for-profit, I think.
[17:45] <photomatt> they have a non-profit and a taxable corporation
[17:45] <photomatt> this is recent, as it happened today
[17:45] <mdawaffe> http://www.mozilla.org/reorganization/
[17:45] <stevecooley> Hey, just declare yourself a religion, same effect ;)
[17:45] <photomatt> ha!
[17:46] <Firas> stevecooley: best thing ever said in a wp meetup :)
[17:46] <relle> Matt are you at least an LLC?
[17:46] <Firas> Donate to the WP Religion
[17:46] <relle> Or X?
[17:46] <relle> Or X
[17:46] <relle> sorry. S corp
[17:46] <relle> fingers broke.
[17:46] <photomatt> so my preference is, since all the costs are being covered right now and no one is on the street begging for food, to encourage people to donate TIME rather than money
[17:47] <mdawaffe> How is WP Inc incorporated?
[17:47] <photomatt> technically it's a c-corp
[17:48] <mdawaffe> k
[17:48] <photomatt> however that's not where donations go
[17:48] <mdawaffe> right
[17:48] <photomatt> the inc. covers all the costs that donations don't
[17:49] <photomatt> so in the future there will be a real foundation/.org, but it's not really needed right now and I'd rather let other projects do it and make any mistakes first
[17:50] <photomatt> the inc stuff needs to be separate, and it is, it's more a community benefactor than something people should donate money to
[17:50] <Firas> photomatt, there's a bit of nebulousness/uncertainty about the orgs built around wp, such as this mysterious wordpress inc
[17:50] <mdawaffe> Where does inc get its money from - benefactors?
[17:50] <tunicwriter> What -is- wordpress, inc., heh...
[17:51] <photomatt> the goal, eventually, is for it to be the biggest contributor someday, supporting community members to work on WP full-time
[17:51] <Firas> is it the thing we talked about Donncha being involved with?
[17:51] <photomatt> similar to how the moz corp generates revenue, but it's all driven back into open source code and products
[17:51] <photomatt> yep
[17:52] <Firas> cool
[17:52] <Firas> so if there are any plans for a writeup or something about what it is and where it's going (maybe just a blog entry) it could be useful when it's gotten around to
[17:53] <tunicwriter> So will it be more like bringing in freelance, say, plugin writers from time to time to do some stuff and pay them, or will it be a bit more permanent?
[17:53] <photomatt> so while I recognize that fundraising is right for some organizations, I would rather that WP can run and flourish without bugging people for money 3 times a year
[17:53] <photomatt> Firas: of course, I think these discussions are helpful in formulating that too
[17:53] <photomatt> it's not all figured out yet
[17:53] <photomatt> all of your feedback is shaping what's going to happen
[17:54] <tunicwriter> Then why hasn't it really been discussed here before now? :\
[17:54] <stevecooley> for the curious - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501C3
[17:54] <photomatt> tunicwriter: it's come up a few times
[17:54] <Firas> tunicwriter: it has
[17:54] <mdawaffe> What's mozilla's revenue source?
[17:54] * mdawaffe can't do arithmetic - money is mysterious
[17:54] <tunicwriter> Figures, one of the, like, 3 meetups I missed...
[17:55] <photomatt> firefox generates a lot of money from its google and amazon partnerships
[17:55] <Firas> netscape donation upon cutoff, and arrangements with search engines and the like
[17:55] <tunicwriter> photomatt: so can you explain how inc. gets it money and donations to wordpress and how they interact if they do interact...?
[17:55] <masq|lappy> not to mention fundraisers (NYT ad for example)
[17:55] <Firas> masq|lappy: yeah but the donations don't really make a dent towards paying salaries, i don't think
[17:56] <mdawaffe> k - that's impressive
[17:56] <masq|lappy> Firas, definitely not, but it is a fairly large source of income
[17:56] <photomatt> sure
[17:56] <photomatt> donations go into a paypal account which I don't use except for WP stuff
[17:56] <photomatt> I pay taxes on it, which isn't ideal, but it's not enough to make a difference
[17:57] <relle> yet
[17:58] <tunicwriter> And inc.?
[17:58] <photomatt> the inc is a separate org whose goal is to support OS development and services
[17:58] <photomatt> right now it gets its money from partnerships and me
[17:59] <tunicwriter> Will the donations part eventually be wrapped up into inc.?
[17:59] <photomatt> no I don't think it should be
[17:59] <photomatt> let's just say worse case scenario, the inc disappears tomorrow
[17:59] <photomatt> wordpress.org can and should continue, that's why it's separate
[18:00] <stevecooley> right, in the event of a liability for the inc, assets are assets
[18:00] <photomatt> it's a layer of protection
[18:00] <tunicwriter> Good point. So the donations go solely to wp.org?
[18:00] <photomatt> exactly
[18:00] <stevecooley> if donations are part of the inc's assets, they get swallowed into the liability
[18:00] <tunicwriter> and it's... childlings?
[18:00] <photomatt> stevecooley nailed it
[18:00] <stevecooley> I've been around the block ;)
[18:00] <photomatt> so by keeping all that separate organization, all of wp.org and such is protected
[18:01] <stevecooley> that's a very good strategy
[18:01] <mdawaffe> Is it possible to set up a NFP for the donations that remains sep from wp inc?
[18:01] <stevecooley> it has the persistence of the project in it's intentions
[18:02] <mdawaffe> (I understand that the current level of donations may not warrant this yet)
[18:02] <photomatt> mdawaffe: in the future, yes
[18:02] <mdawaffe> k
[18:02] <photomatt> at some point I would like that to be one of the first major donations from the inc to wordpress, covering the legal costs and hassles of setting that up
[18:03] <mdawaffe> makes sense
[18:03] <photomatt> however that's down the road, not going to happen in 2005
[18:03] <photomatt> does that cover everyone's questions?
[18:04] <mdawaffe> mine
[18:04] <tunicwriter> Last one... Who's currently employed by the inc. right now?
[18:04] <stevecooley> maybe a codex page would be good for this?
[18:04] <relle> stevecooley: it's "in the works"
[18:05] <photomatt> stevecooley: there'll be a whole website about it!
[18:05] <mdawaffe> (inc would need its own site)
[18:05] <masq|lappy> photomatt, wordpress.com right?
[18:05] <stevecooley> :) ok, good ideas
[18:05] <photomatt> tunicwriter: only donncha right now, ryan part-time in the future
[18:05] <tunicwriter> and yourself?
[18:06] <photomatt> nope
[18:06] <tunicwriter> Really? You don't work for your own project's incorporated entity? :o
[18:06] <photomatt> I already get to work on WP and make a living
[18:06] <tunicwriter> Ah.
[18:07] <stevecooley> I'm sure you're an executive in the corporation, you just don't take a salary?
[18:07] <photomatt> yes
[18:07] <stevecooley> or, a member of the board of directors
[18:07] <stevecooley> 3 to incorporate
[18:08] <tunicwriter> So what's your capacity within the inc. then?
[18:08] <photomatt> it's not that formal
[18:09] <photomatt> when it's all figured out I'll let you know :)
[18:09] <tunicwriter> Alright, then, I'm done with my barrage of questions. Continue on ;)
[18:09] <photomatt> thanks for your interest
[18:10] <photomatt> next: masquerade's new plugin
[18:10] <masq|lappy> who? what? which plugin?
[18:10] <relle> The ping thing
[18:10] <photomatt> spring ping thing?
[18:10] <relle> We have been getting a LOT of complaints and questions on the forum about long waits when posting.
[18:11] <relle> lol
[18:11] <masq|lappy> relle, you can talk, you volunteered it :-P
[18:11] <relle> masq|lappy: came up with a plugin to help battle it.
[18:11] <photomatt> pingomatic is adding a new server this week
[18:11] <relle> We're also working on an article about it.
[18:11] <photomatt> if that's the cause of the slowdown
[18:11] <Firas> photomatt: it's more about which hook the ping is assigned to
[18:11] <relle> Will the new server speed up the load time for saving posts?
[18:11] <masq|lappy> photomatt, combo of pingomatic and pinging everything before displaying page content
[18:11] <Firas> i think masq's plugin does it on shutdown?
[18:11] <photomatt> gotcha
[18:11] <masq|lappy> Firas, yep
[18:11] <photomatt> we used to try and redirect people before all that stuff was processed
[18:12] <photomatt> if you found a better way, please trac it as a patch for 1.6 as well
[18:12] <Firas> so the reason it's a relevant issue is that maybe some of its ideas can be rolled into the core
[18:12] <Firas> yeah
[18:12] <masq|lappy> photomatt, sending a redirect header doesn't help unless the page dies out directly afterwards, otherwise the headers aren't considered until the request is finished
[18:13] <photomatt> I think it depends on whether output buffering or gzip is on
[18:13] <photomatt> once the browser gets that header, it goes
[18:13] <photomatt> however it's sometimes buffered somewhere along the way
[18:13] <photomatt> the script waits for more output until it gets to the end
[18:13] <photomatt> mod_gzip buffers
[18:13] <photomatt> anyway, looking forward to seeing it
[18:13] <masq|lappy> photomatt, it will go once it gets all the headers, so when the first bit of output is started
[18:14] <photomatt> cool
[18:14] <masq|lappy> which is after pinging
[18:14] <masq|lappy> so, moving pinging to shutdown works, helps out
[18:14] <photomatt> next up: forum volunteers
[18:14] <masq|lappy> I'll see about submitting a patch to trac in a few minutes
[18:14] <relle> speaking of which, kudos again to skippy and ringmaster for the awesome backup plugin. It's been tested on huge databases and is a hit.
[18:15] <ringmaster> Neat.
[18:15] <relle> There was talk of including a "one click" backup in 1.6 and this might be worth considering.
[18:15] <photomatt> hear hear
[18:15] <relle> There's even a progress bar for the backup duration.
[18:15] <relle> weeeee
[18:15] <relle> it didn't break on my 60 meg database! ;-)
[18:15] <photomatt> let's start to wrap the meeting up
[18:16] <Firas> one more thing that'd be useful in the core (again from skippy) is wp-cron, i'll bring it up on wp-hackers sometime
[18:16] <photomatt> we should just include a skippy pack with 1.6 ;)
[18:16] <Firas> lol
[18:16] <relle> Forum volunteers: sign up for the mailing list - http://codex.wordpress.org/Support_Forum_Volunteers
[18:16] <tunicwriter> or make him a dev...
[18:18] <relle> NEXT: the write tab and custom fields
[18:18] <stevecooley> so here's a weird story. I had a friend of a friend email me saying "hey, do you want to test out this wp plugin that lets you submit local business reviews, and in exchange we drive traffic to your site."
[18:19] <stevecooley> so I grab it, and it turns out to be a whole custom post writing subtab
[18:19] <stevecooley> and then I was also looking at an iTunes helper thing for podcasting
[18:19] <stevecooley> and it had a bunch of custom field form fields
[18:20] <stevecooley> is the article writing screen open to plugins? should these people putting out these plugins be doing more homework on how to do what they want without having to custom roll a whole-nother version of that page?
[18:21] <stevecooley> fyi : http://www.insiderpages.com
[18:21] <mdawaffe> I don't know if there are hooks, but there's always JS and the DOM
[18:21] <ringmaster> There are a lot of plugins that affect the UI without rewriting the whole post-editing page.
[18:21] <Firas> i don't think plugins uploaded solely to wp-content/ have an admin menu hook for write
[18:21] <Firas> i could be mistaken
[18:21] <masq|lappy> there are edit screen hooks, a bit of CSS magic and you could do about anything you want with it
[18:22] <stevecooley> from within a plugin?
[18:22] <Firas> the structured blogging plugin
[18:22] <stevecooley> I just wanted to throw it out here that people are starting to look at wordpress as a distributed content submission engine
[18:22] <mdawaffe> yeah - there are hooks
[18:23] <Firas> makes a useful usage of write tabs
[18:23] <masq|lappy> edit_screen and edit_screen_advanced iirc
[18:23] <ringmaster> Yeah, use admin_header or admin_footer or edit_form_advanced hooks
[18:23] <mdawaffe> simple_edit_form
[18:23] <photomatt> interesting
[18:23] <ringmaster> In 1.6, the advanced hook is in the wrong place.  :)
[18:24] <stevecooley> ok, it's not my plugin, and I'm just looking at this from the biz and the user experience perspectives
[18:24] <relle> matt: did you have any new news or anything else before you run off?
[18:24] <stevecooley> thanks for your feedback, folks :)
[18:25] <photomatt> nope, I think that's it
[18:25] <relle> Sorry for interrupting, just it's getting late and I wanted to make sure.
[18:26] <relle> Ah, one more thing on the list.
[18:26] <relle> Jalenack?
[18:26] <relle> Search Docs plugin
[18:26] <Jalenack> yeah.
[18:26] <Jalenack> Ok, I don't know if you all have tested it, but I think we should publicize it a lot more
[18:27] <ringmaster> I've got the trunk version set up on on redalt.com for download.
[18:27] <relle> link?
[18:27] <ringmaster> There were 202 searches using the plugin during the last week of July.
[18:27] <ringmaster> (Yahoo's API has usage reporting that I didn't know I had access to!)
[18:27] <relle> WOW
[18:27] <Jalenack> http://blog.jalenack.com/archives/codex-search-plugin/
[18:28] <tunicwriter> I'd just like to say that Jalenack makes us look gooooooood ;P
[18:28] <relle> The plugin is really awesome and fits into the interface beautifully.
[18:29] <Jalenack> too kind :p
[18:29] <ringmaster> Dude? Spread the love, I wrote the stinking thing.
[18:29] * relle hugs ringmaster for being so unconditionally giving.
[18:29] <Jalenack> yea!
[18:29] <tunicwriter> Oh, yeah, ringmaster, too... :P
[18:29] <Jalenack> heh
[18:29] <relle> So we need to speard the word.
[18:29] <relle> spread.
[18:29] <relle> Totally broken fingers today.
[18:29] <ringmaster> Darn right.  ;)
[18:30] <Jalenack> sorry, slipped my mind
[18:30] <tunicwriter> We can spear the word, too, relle :P
[18:30] <relle> that works for me, too.
[18:30] <relle> So everyone talk it up.
[18:30] * tunicwriter runs off to sharpen a rock and find a long stick.
[18:30] <relle> Anything else on the agenda?
[18:30] <Jalenack> well, does the plugin need any tweaking
[18:30] <Jalenack> ?
[18:30] <relle> And matt thanks for taking time to explain the business side of things. It answers a LOT of people's questions.
[18:31] <tunicwriter> Yes, indeed...
[18:33] <relle> photomatt?
[18:35] <Firas> i guess </meetup> ?
[18:35] <relle> thank you
[18:35] * tunicwriter is now known as photomat
[18:35] <relle> Thanks everyone.
[18:35] <photomat> </meetup>

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