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IRC Meetups/2005/December/December21RawLog

[19:02] <gsnedders> *starts drum-roll*
[19:02] <gsnedders> error_bot: time
[19:02] <error_bot> gsnedders: 10:00 PM, December 21, 2005
[19:02] <shep> LIES!
[19:02] <skippy> GO GO GO!
[19:02] * Joins: tunicwriter
[19:02] <skippy> speed meetup. shep go!
[19:02] <skippy> times up! tunicwriter go!
[19:02] * Joins: stevecooley
[19:02] <skippy> time's up! stevecooley go!
[19:02] <shep> hi my name is shep, i'm an alcoholic
[19:02] <skippy> time's up! ryanduff go!
[19:03] <ryanduff> shep: this isn't AA
[19:03] <skippy> time's up! ringmaster go!
[19:03] <stevecooley> lol
[19:03] <ringmaster> Install wp2.0, call skippy for help. Home #:...
[19:03] <skippy> meeting adjourned.
[19:03] * tunicwriter blinks
[19:03] <stevecooley> holy crap
[19:03] <photomatt_aus> haha
[19:03] <photomatt_aus> best meetup ever
[19:03] <photomatt_aus> <meetup>
[19:03] <stevecooley> well, at least i made it for most of it this time
[19:03] <tunicwriter> skippy: Have a little too much whippity-doo-hoo last night?
[19:03] <skippy> tee hee
[19:04] <photomatt_aus> let's get started
[19:04] <photomatt_aus> "Should we organize an WordPress Codex Update Week for January 2006?"
[19:04] <shep> yes
[19:04] <masquerade> +1 on that idea
[19:04] <skippy> yes. a comprehensive revamp for 2.0 is needed.
[19:04] <gsnedders> yeah.
[19:04] <shep> skippy: exactly
[19:04] <gsnedders> especially plugin hooks
[19:05] <gsnedders> they were never complete under WP1.5
[19:05] <photomatt_aus> what's that plugin hook site? flatearth something
[19:05] <skippy> wphooks.flatearth.org
[19:06] <photomatt_aus> can we make that an official resource? it's fantastic
[19:06] <skippy> it's MarkJ's and someone else's, isn't it?
[19:07] <masquerade> It'd be nice if we could have some documentation before the release. I really think it'd help cut down the post release support rush, without proper documentation for a new release, everyone is forced to IRC and the forums
[19:07] <skippy> masquerade: at the very least, we need a) a polished upgrade guide; b) a comprehensive "what's new"; and c) a smattering of "known issues"
[19:07] <photomatt_aus> masquerade: probably a better question is -- what has changed enough to require new documentation?
[19:07] <ringmaster> The version number.
[19:07] <gsnedders> is there any documentation for the user system?
[19:07] <skippy> the entire post interface. the entire user system.
[19:08] <masquerade> photomatt_aus, how about the whole posting interface, setting up file permissions for caching, the user system
[19:08] <ringmaster> WYSI, image-uploading.
[19:09] <ryanduff> updated plugin docs, but thats only important for those still to update theirs, so that could or couldn't be a priority
[19:09] <photomatt_aus> rather than listing everything that has changed
[19:09] <photomatt_aus> it'd probably be better to focus on things that have changed and aren't intuitive
[19:09] <photomatt_aus> someone coming from 1.5 -> 2.0 isn't going to be completely lost on the post page
[19:09] <masquerade> the post interface being intuitive is still up for debate, as far as I'm concerned
[19:09] <shep> my plugin is 2.0 compliant!
[19:10] <tunicwriter> Huzzah! ... Let us rejoice and throw parties for shep's victory!
[19:10] <photomatt_aus> well if we use feedback on WP.com as a barometer, it's very intuitive
[19:10] <photomatt_aus> the roles system isn't as much
[19:11] <ringmaster> So the suggestion is that we don't immediately upgrade documentation to reflect the release version because we can guess at how it works pretty well?
[19:11] <ryanduff> photomatt_aus: how many of them (people on wp.com) have came from 1.5, is that a good way to judge?
[19:11] <photomatt_aus> rough crowd today!
[19:11] <photomatt_aus> ringmaster: of course not
[19:11] <skippy> please, "passionate" crowd!  ;)
[19:11] * ringmaster skins skippy alive.
[19:11] <skippy> ok, ringmaster is rough.
[19:12] <skippy> the rest are passionate.
[19:12] <photomatt_aus> I think we should just delete all the documentation entirely, if people can't figure it out they don't deserve to use WP
[19:12] <masquerade> skippy, that's pure passion coming from ringmaster
[19:12] <ryanduff> thats a mindset to work off of
[19:12] <skeltoac> It's a wiki for crying out loud.
[19:12] <ryanduff> if you can't figure it out.. you can't use it
[19:12] <photomatt_aus> we aren't nearly elitist enough for an open source project
[19:12] <masquerade> photomatt, Oh, in that case, we should just kill the support forums too
[19:13] <skeltoac> also kill downloads. svn only.
[19:13] <photomatt_aus> okay, now we're being productive
[19:13] <ryanduff> and while we're at it, we'll all close our irc clients
[19:13] <gsnedders> bye! :P
[19:13] <skippy> does that mean that WordPress 3.0 will be a piece of paper?
[19:13] <photomatt_aus> I'll move wordpress.org to godaddy hosting so it'll crash if too many people use it
[19:13] <skeltoac> So, docs... I know I will have to document some things nobody knows about in the API.
[19:14] <masquerade> damn skeltoac, he's taking shots at you
[19:14] <skeltoac> photomatt_aus: ouch!
[19:14] <photomatt_aus> now that we're all on the same page
[19:14] <photomatt_aus> let's decide on some prorities, which was my only point with the documentation
[19:15] <photomatt_aus> the upgrade docs are already getting a lot of love
[19:15] <skeltoac> But I know I'm not the only person who can document stuff like how to upload files. Actually, I like to think we can do without that right away.
[19:15] <masquerade> Well, if you want priorities, how about we move to the second agenda on the list
[19:15] <photomatt_aus> I believe MichaelH also has some good roles documentation, all waiting to be moved into the main docs
[19:15] <MichaelH> roles and capabilities already there.
[19:16] <masquerade> skeltoac, I think there's a need for documentation on the image stuff, since the "click for the menu" isn't obvious, and drag and drop is broken on a few browsers
[19:16] <skeltoac> masquerade: Are you volunteering? :)
[19:16] <photomatt_aus> MichaelH: gorgeous
[19:16] <ryanduff> why not nail down a date, figure out what documentation needs to be updated, and make sure its all done in time
[19:16] <masquerade> skeltoac, if I have more than tonight to write it, then maybe
[19:18] <photomatt_aus> what have been the biggest issues on the 2.0 beta forum?
[19:18] <skippy> I think priorities should focus on people upgrading. So documentation should address what's new, and how it works.
[19:19] * Joins: Podz
[19:19] <ringmaster> Note that "what's new" extends beyond the front face of the UI. People will want to know how to write themes that use the new image attachment features. This isn't part of the UI.
[19:20] <skippy> and the new theme functions.php thingie.
[19:20] <ringmaster> Right.
[19:20] <skippy> In the little looking I've done, upgrade issues seem to be common in the beta forum.
[19:21] <photomatt_aus> developer documentation isn't critical for the release
[19:21] <skippy> it doesn't seem to be 100% yet. But I haven't done it myself yet.
[19:21] <skeltoac> +1
[19:21] <photomatt_aus> I've seen that as well
[19:21] <ringmaster> I've seen a weird issue with the upgrade checking for usermeta data, but it's sporadic. Twice today.
[19:21] <photomatt_aus> the vast majority seem to be upgrade issues
[19:21] <Podz> support by coders IS essential. And not just the odd answer here and there - lots and lots of answers
[19:21] <skeltoac> Any bugs in the upgrade script or just user troubles?
[19:21] <masquerade> ringmaster, I've seen the error myself, so I know its a reproducable problem
[19:22] <skeltoac> what's the trac ticket number?
[19:22] <Podz> photomatt - why do you want this out of the door ? What's the real push for ?
[19:22] <ringmaster> I just haven't been able to reproduce it yet, since it requires a 1.5.2->2.0 upgrade, it seemed.
[19:22] <skippy> http://wordpress.org/support/topic/52792
[19:23] <masquerade> skeltoac, http://trac.wordpress.org/ticket/2110
[19:23] <photomatt_aus> Podz: as I said earlier, I'm open to changes on the release date
[19:23] <photomatt_aus> if the new wp.org had been ready today, then maybe, but it's not
[19:23] * Joins: geeksmakemehot
[19:23] <photomatt_aus> and tomorrow or friday gets close to xmas weekend
[19:24] <stevecooley> how different is the release version from the RC?
[19:24] <tunicwriter> In the new wp.org, is there a credit page dedicated to me for being Matt's hope and inspiration?
[19:24] <Podz> So why not go with a big 'ta-da!' on a date we can all agree here ? We all make the right noises, we have all the support in place and the new look ready - all good.
[19:25] <photomatt_aus> stevecooley: there have been one or two small changesets, there shouldn't be any more
[19:25] <skippy> is there a step-by-step tutorial on uploading media, and placing it in a new post?
[19:25] <Podz> there's over 900,000 1.5 downloads - that's a lot of people.
[19:26] <photomatt_aus> Podz: that's over 10 months and multiple releases of 1.5
[19:26] <masquerade> I think we should go back to a "When its done" release date. With the current rate of bug appearances, we need time to test for regressions in the fixes, and make sure that there aren't any undiscovered bugs
[19:26] <Podz> and if 10% download in the first week ....#
[19:27] <photomatt_aus> realistically we'll probably get 4-8k downloads a day following the release
[19:27] <masquerade> the people desperate for 2.0, the URIs to the RCs are obvious, they can get them, and deal with the issues that come with it
[19:27] <photomatt_aus> masquerade: thanks for your input.
[19:27] <skippy> what do _you_ think needs to be done before release, photomatt_aus ?
[19:28] <skippy> what documentation do _you_ think needs to be in place before release?
[19:28] <ringmaster> There is at least one unclosed blocker on 2.0. There should be more changesets, and we should also have time to test them.
[19:28] <photomatt_aus> I think the most important thing for the release is foremost having people around to help
[19:28] <photomatt_aus> ringmaster: what blocker?
[19:29] <ringmaster> http://trac.wordpress.org/ticket/2110
[19:29] <photomatt_aus> which is why I started the signup list for the 26th
[19:30] <photomatt_aus> in terms of documentation I think what skippy outlined earlier is good for initial focus
[19:30] <Podz> photomatt - which implies a release on the 26th ... ? Or earlier and close Xmas eve / day ?
[19:30] <photomatt_aus> of course over time most of the codex will need to be revised and checked
[19:30] <ryanduff> so lets nail down a date? does the 26th work for everybody? is that enough time?
[19:31] <ryanduff> I'm in for the 26th
[19:31] <skeltoac> wfm
[19:31] <photomatt_aus> that would be enough time to get the new site ready as wel
[19:31] <photomatt_aus> *well
[19:32] <photomatt_aus> so fine by me
[19:32] <photomatt_aus> any arguments against the 26th?
[19:32] <skippy> nay
[19:32] <Podz> nope
[19:32] <masquerade> not if its ready by the 26th
[19:32] <ringmaster> Is that adequate time to get the required minimal doumentation online?
[19:33] <skippy> ringmaster: it ought to be sufficient for most of the doco.
[19:33] <gsnedders> another blocker: http://trac.wordpress.org/ticket/2115
[19:34] <ryanduff> ringmaster: should be
[19:34] * Quits: geeksmakemehot (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)�)
[19:34] <photomatt_aus> alright, 26th it is
[19:34] <photomatt_aus> I'll send a note to the hackers list
[19:34] <skippy> i'll post to the docs list to try to coordinate upgrade docs, and intros to new user features.
[19:35] <PotterSys> anyone knows what docs pages (beside roles) are being created?
[19:36] <MichaelH> I'm working on http://codex.wordpress.org/User:MichaelH/Revised_Upgrade_Instructions
[19:36] * Joins: mumbles-scouts
[19:36] <mumbles-scouts> how goes the meetup?
[19:36] <photomatt_aus> sent to list
[19:36] * mumbles-scouts is now known as mumbles
[19:36] <photomatt_aus> anything else to cover?
[19:36] <skeltoac> Just to reiterate about drag and drop, it is not a WP feature. It is a perk for Firefox users and that's about all. For anyone who happens to author docs about this or answer a support question, the Send To Editor link is the focus.
[19:37] <MichaelH> Need a changelog 2.0
[19:37] <gsnedders> what drag and drop?
[19:38] <PotterSys> the drag and drop for Image Upload form
[19:38] <ringmaster> A 2.0 changelog is going to be totally unmanageable and nigh on worthless.
[19:39] <Podz> width="71" yet height=91 the " are wrong one one ..
[19:39] <ringmaster> Better to summarize and point at Trac.
[19:39] <Podz> skeltoac, ^^ IE send to editor
[19:39] <skippy> MichaelH: the upgrade instructions say not to delete /wp-content/ and not to upload the new one. But there are theme changes in the default themes.
[19:39] <MichaelH> okay ringmaster
[19:39] <Podz> the alt has no " either
[19:40] <MichaelH> that my problem. how to address wp-content...
[19:40] <Podz> skippy, but if you do not use those themes, it matters not
[19:40] <skippy> Podz: sure, but many people do.
[19:40] <Podz> those are for new users, not upgraders
[19:40] <masquerade> Podz, actually, it does matter
[19:40] <MichaelH> i swear wp-content has to be 777 for wp-dp-backup to work
[19:40] <masquerade> certain theme files fallback on ones in the defualt theme
[19:40] <masquerade> MichaelH, it can be lower, depending on the server setup
[19:40] <skippy> MichaelH: I suggest that the upgrade docs be _just_ for 1.5 -> 2.0. Older upgrade docs can be on a separate (linked) page.
[19:40] <Podz> fair enough :)
[19:41] <skippy> we got a lot of flack from people for having too many upgrading instructions, making it hard to find the one you needed.
[19:41] <MichaelH> will do skippy
[19:41] <ringmaster> And those new themes also contain examples of new features within the theme system.
[19:41] <MichaelH> O
[19:41] <Podz> and this was why I asked if the default would change ...
[19:42] <skippy> got to go. g'night.
[19:42] <Podz> ringmaster, which implies that all themes will need upgrading to take advantage too, or that theme / plugin authors will need to release 2 versions if 1.5.x is still to be supported
[19:43] * skippy is now known as skippy|away
[19:43] <MichaelH> I considered recommending renaming theme/default but thought that to complicated...
[19:44] <ringmaster> No, they should all still work ok, it's just that upgrading theme authors (who we all know are NOT developers) may never see those example files.
[19:45] <mumbles> i still say there should be a bunch of themes include diwth wordpress that are "easily" modivied
[19:45] <ringmaster> What is the concern for overwriting the wp-content directory with that form the distribution?
[19:45] <masquerade> ringmaster, the people who have modified the default theme will suddenly lose their changes
[19:45] <MichaelH> ftp overwrite not particularly accurate
[19:46] * Quits: gsnedders
[19:46] <ringmaster> If you've modified a core theme, you should make changes to it to move it before you upgrade. Simple solution.
[19:46] <masquerade> then document it and be done with it
[19:46] <mumbles> you should always rename the theme anyway before working on it
[19:46] <ringmaster> And also mention in the same breath, "Don't do that!"
[19:46] <ringmaster> ...modify the core themes, that is.
[19:47] <mumbles> ringmaster - im talking about thems thate are constucted apone the same lines
[19:47] <MichaelH> So recommend backup of wp-content, then delete wp-content, then upload new wp-content?
[19:47] <mumbles> so that most web savey people can change css colours and stuff
[19:48] <ringmaster> I'm not crazy about this deleting the existing directory business, but that's been the rallying cry of documenters since before I got here.
[19:49] <ringmaster> My suggestion would be: If you've modified a core them, copy it to a new directory and rename it so that it works from there instead. Backup wp-content. Upload WP over the existing install in entirety.
[19:49] <Podz> I don't advise deletion of wp-content ever - it's the default upload location for wp.
[19:49] <ringmaster> No, I mean before upgrading.
[19:49] <masquerade> I don't advise the deletion of anything
[19:50] <ringmaster> Then it's just MichaelH's rallying cry, because he just wrote it and I know I've heard it somewhere before.  ;)
[19:51] <skeltoac> Hm. Before svn I always let my FTP client overwrite newer files, no deleting. WFM.
[19:51] <masquerade> has always worked for me too
[19:51] <skeltoac> We're the lucky ones ;)
[19:52] <MichaelH> Okay will not recommend delete of wp-content and will address overwrite issues that have been around since before ringmaster p
[19:52] <ringmaster> Heh.
[19:52] <Podz> MichaelH, we will differ slightly on what we present anyway. Both will be safe though
[19:56] <photomatt_aus> MichaelH: if you want me to review anything please drop me an email, I'd be happy to help
[19:56] <photomatt_aus> unless there is anything else, let's cut the meetup
[20:01] <PotterSys> seems that all has been said...
[20:08] <photomatt_aus> </meetup> (whoops)

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