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Codex

IRC Meetups/2005/June/June22RawLog

Jun 22 16:03:28 relle Relle pounds the gavel
Jun 22 16:03:30 cyphase Meating In Session
Jun 22 16:03:35 relle Firas: are you our official secretary for this meeting?
Jun 22 16:03:42 * MichaelH (~chatzilla@pcp0011112479pcs.elkrdg01.md.comcast.net) has joined #WordPress-Meetup
Jun 22 16:04:03 Firas relle, I'll write it up but my logs are kept wackily so if someone else could post them
Jun 22 16:04:09 relle First thing we need to say is that photomatt will not be here at this meeting, unless he slips in unnoticed.
Jun 22 16:04:25 relle He is in NY or somewhere with a bunch of big wigs doing big wig things.
Jun 22 16:04:35 relle So we are going to go through the list and deal with the issues as best we can.
Jun 22 16:04:37 relle What's first up?
Jun 22 16:04:44 relle I'll post if you write.
Jun 22 16:04:46 * otaku42 (otaku@otaku42.developer.madwifi) has joined #wordpress-meetup
Jun 22 16:04:49 westi Wiki Working Group - status?
Jun 22 16:04:52 cyphase Wiki Working Group
Jun 22 16:04:57 relle Anyone on that?
Jun 22 16:05:00 skippy yes
Jun 22 16:05:06 skippy I've shared some links to the wiki theme info
Jun 22 16:05:07 relle status - update?
Jun 22 16:05:11 masquerade nothing has been said on the list at all in over a week
Jun 22 16:05:15 skippy and heard a resounding silence.
Jun 22 16:05:31 * Podz (~Podz@82-71-7-36.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) has joined #wordpress-meetup
Jun 22 16:05:38 * robla goes to look at the email
Jun 22 16:05:41 twidget okay, you were right
Jun 22 16:05:42 relle Matt implied that this might not be a good effort because the Codex was fixed so fast a couple weeks ago.
Jun 22 16:05:55 masquerade Seems that with the codex working, the idea has been semi-dropped, and now Matt said it was going to be for teching up the Codex instead, new themes and the like
Jun 22 16:05:56 Firas If I remember the last meeting's logs, matt said soething about the codex being stable now or something?
Jun 22 16:05:59 skippy I know Matt wants to sync wiki logins with forums
Jun 22 16:06:09 relle Yes, the codex is stable. The server...that's another issue.
Jun 22 16:06:11 skippy I do not know how to write the plugin necessary
Jun 22 16:06:48 relle Is it possible?
Jun 22 16:06:51 Firas So right now nobody has been delegated the themes thing?
Jun 22 16:07:05 relle Themeing is a different issue.
Jun 22 16:07:12 skippy relle: yes, it's possible; but beyond me.
Jun 22 16:07:18 skippy I took a stab, and failed.
Jun 22 16:07:18 relle The Wiki Work Group is to build a new wiki from the ground up.
Jun 22 16:07:23 skippy I shared the info with the wiki mailing list.
Jun 22 16:07:35 skippy Oh? I didn't know that was the point of the wiki group.
Jun 22 16:07:37 Firas relle: not any longer..
Jun 22 16:07:37 masquerade relle, iirc, last week Matt changed that since the codex is working
Jun 22 16:07:52 skippy I through the wiki group was to theme mediaiwki for WP
Jun 22 16:08:09 relle No, rebuild one is what I read.
Jun 22 16:08:15 masquerade skippy, it is now, and I believe to work on the users system sync with the forums
Jun 22 16:08:39 skippy so we need to place this item on hold until we hear from Matt.
Jun 22 16:08:50 skippy For the record, I strongly oppose any effort to write a new wiki.
Jun 22 16:08:57 Strings28 Agreed.
Jun 22 16:08:59 robla agreed
Jun 22 16:09:00 relle Agreed
Jun 22 16:09:02 Podz agreed
Jun 22 16:09:05 cyphase agreed
Jun 22 16:09:06 shep|lappy agreed
Jun 22 16:09:10 Firas ok
Jun 22 16:09:15 Firas Future contests coming up? Is there a guideline or advice area for people who want to start new contests?
Jun 22 16:09:16 Strings28 WikiPress is a nogo
Jun 22 16:09:16 relle Wow. That's democracy in action.
Jun 22 16:09:20 skippy motion carried. Now Matt can ignore us all, as usual. =)
Jun 22 16:09:26 westi skippy: :P
Jun 22 16:09:32 cyphase
Jun 22 16:09:34 relle Any one know of contests coming up?
Jun 22 16:09:47 skippy Should we solicit feedback from LaughingLizard re: his experience with the plugin competition?
Jun 22 16:09:48 shep|lappy i still vote for a WP t-shirt contest
Jun 22 16:09:58 shep|lappy it was briefly mentioned pre-new logo
Jun 22 16:10:01 skippy I can interview him, and write up a "Lessons Learned"
Jun 22 16:10:14 relle We really need to have everyone involved in the past few contests help us write up something for the codex on how to host one and what they learned.
Jun 22 16:10:17 relle Great!
Jun 22 16:10:22 Podz skippy:: Can I suggest Shadow too ?
Jun 22 16:10:28 skippy shadow
Jun 22 16:10:29 skippy ?
Jun 22 16:10:30 relle skippy: interview him and Alex for the two theme contests.
Jun 22 16:10:35 relle Delegated.
Jun 22 16:10:40 Podz for interview - content compo he ran
Jun 22 16:10:42 skippy Podz: send me contact info for Shadow.
Jun 22 16:10:44 skippy please.
Jun 22 16:10:47 Podz np
Jun 22 16:10:48 relle EXCELLENT.
Jun 22 16:10:50 skippy I'll contact 'em.
Jun 22 16:10:51 relle Thanks, skippy.
Jun 22 16:10:54 relle next?
Jun 22 16:11:14 Firas Install WordPress for a Friend - Status?
Jun 22 16:11:25 shep|lappy what is this?
Jun 22 16:11:29 relle Last meeting, after it was almost done, matt brought this up.
Jun 22 16:11:41 relle It is a week/month of encouraging people to help a friend install WP
Jun 22 16:11:45 Strings28 I've installed WP for lots of friends :)
Jun 22 16:11:48 shep|lappy lol
Jun 22 16:11:50 shep|lappy me too
Jun 22 16:11:51 relle He wants to use rel= to keep track of who installs
Jun 22 16:11:56 Podz ditto
Jun 22 16:11:57 relle and run a track of installers on the forum.
Jun 22 16:11:59 skippy It's a great idea; but I think it falls into two categories: new installs for never-before bloggers; and conversions for users of other systems
Jun 22 16:12:04 relle There's a page now on it on the Codex.
Jun 22 16:12:13 relle http://codex.wordpress.org/User:Matt/Rel_Ideas
Jun 22 16:12:28 relle An great idea for spreading the gospel of wordpress
Jun 22 16:12:57 Strings28 SpreadWordpress.org?
Jun 22 16:12:57 Firas Ok, so it's a good idea and we're waiting for dates and things
Jun 22 16:13:02 relle He may need some people to help him implement this, so please sign up at the top or bottom of that page that you would like to help with this project.
Jun 22 16:13:05 cyphase does installing it on your own server for a friend count?
Jun 22 16:13:11 Firas Strings28: heh
Jun 22 16:13:16 shep|lappy how about a "Convert a Xanga user to Wordpress day?"
Jun 22 16:13:16 shep|lappy lol
Jun 22 16:13:24 Firas Save a Xanga User Day
Jun 22 16:13:25 Strings28 Ha ha.
Jun 22 16:13:31 shep|lappy Firas: yes!
Jun 22 16:13:38 relle There are a lot of details that have to be figured out, so if you want to help, put your name on a list on that page.
Jun 22 16:13:46 twidget Friends Don't Let Friends Blogspot
Jun 22 16:13:52 Strings28 WordPress: Not just your kid sister's blogging tool.
Jun 22 16:13:55 Strings28 LOL
Jun 22 16:14:00 relle We also need more ideas on promoting wordpress, so get on your idea hats and pitch in.
Jun 22 16:14:17 relle next?
Jun 22 16:14:19 shep|lappy twidget: t-shirt idea!
Jun 22 16:14:22 Firas Forum: Increased search results? Paged maybe? Status?
Jun 22 16:14:24 jalenack We should be promoting more things like weblogs.us
Jun 22 16:14:24 * ryanduff (~ryan@pcp09614033pcs.hershy01.pa.comcast.net) has joined #wordpress-meetup
Jun 22 16:14:32 relle What's the status of searches, podz?
Jun 22 16:14:34 ryanduff hi all
Jun 22 16:14:40 Firas jalenack: there are certain issues with that site
Jun 22 16:14:42 masquerade ryanduff, to shame, you're late
Jun 22 16:14:52 relle podz?
Jun 22 16:14:54 Podz searches - no changes as yet I think
Jun 22 16:14:55 ryanduff masquerade: i rushed home as quick as possible :P
Jun 22 16:14:56 Strings28 Can we do something (so bold) like the Times Ad Mozilla did?
Jun 22 16:15:05 relle how is the new search going?
Jun 22 16:15:11 twidget Strings28: $$$
Jun 22 16:15:12 ryanduff masquerade: if i missed something important, please, pm me
Jun 22 16:15:12 shep|lappy Strings28: thats a bit pricey
Jun 22 16:15:16 Podz I like it - but I still use G gtoo
Jun 22 16:15:17 jalenack alright, but in order to convert blogspot users and them, weblogs.us is what they are looking for
Jun 22 16:15:17 relle New ideas go on next week's agenda, okay!
Jun 22 16:15:28 relle Any complaints or issues?
Jun 22 16:15:28 Strings28 I know it costs money, but its got potential. There are thousands of installs.
Jun 22 16:15:32 Firas Ok
Jun 22 16:15:35 Firas Forum: Increased search results? Paged maybe? Status?
Jun 22 16:15:36 masquerade Strings28, I don't think we'd gather that amount of money, Times ads are $$$$$
Jun 22 16:15:44 relle I encountered some errors on repeat searches from the results window.
Jun 22 16:16:00 Firas Podz, do you have any info on that?
Jun 22 16:16:06 twidget Unless you know of a rich benefactor
Jun 22 16:16:14 Podz searches ? no, nothing yet from matt
Jun 22 16:16:18 relle okay.
Jun 22 16:16:22 relle next?
Jun 22 16:16:25 * alexsmit1 (haunteduni@HauntedUnix-student-pdpc.sourcemage) has joined #wordpress-meetup
Jun 22 16:16:28 Firas 1.6 support EVERY support request for ANY blog running code later than 1.5.1.2 WILL be closed ON SIGHT. I couldn't care if it's about CSS - it's a dead post. A link to the page Skippy made will be used.
Jun 22 16:16:33 Firas Who is I?
Jun 22 16:16:37 relle This if Forums, now.
Jun 22 16:16:37 Podz me
Jun 22 16:16:38 relle right?
Jun 22 16:16:39 skippy Me and Podz.
Jun 22 16:16:43 Firas And yeah, I'd think that's a non-controversial issue
Jun 22 16:16:49 skippy no mercy.
Jun 22 16:16:50 relle Okay, we're talking about forums.
Jun 22 16:17:06 skippy No, it's not controversial; but it needs to be made clear what the expectation will be.
Jun 22 16:17:09 masquerade Well, some people find it offensive, but eh, you guys, charge on and ignore the fools who are throwing stuff.
Jun 22 16:17:14 relle Podz: has there been any discussions yet.
Jun 22 16:17:16 twidget Binary Bonsai has downgraded saying 1.6 is buggy
Jun 22 16:17:23 ryanduff twidget: it is
Jun 22 16:17:24 Firas of course it is :)
Jun 22 16:17:25 Podz I saw that..
Jun 22 16:17:28 Podz relle:: on ?
Jun 22 16:17:33 relle 1.6 on the forum.
Jun 22 16:17:36 ryanduff i checked my nightly after his post and boy does it look b0rked
Jun 22 16:17:40 Strings28 The forum users need to know that they're using the 'insane version' (as you implied).
Jun 22 16:17:50 Podz no - but this needs nailing now, hence my bringing it up
Jun 22 16:17:54 ryanduff functionally everthing appears, the status of posts working, i'm not sure
Jun 22 16:17:56 relle good.
Jun 22 16:18:04 masquerade We should tell matt to add a few insane filters throughout the code, like randomly insert "WP 1.6 is unstable" into posts and such
Jun 22 16:18:19 masquerade Will stop people from putting it on production blogs
Jun 22 16:18:20 ryanduff i have a nightly upgrade script that grabs the latest every night, i occasionally check it to see what the status is
Jun 22 16:18:28 relle So as it continues to stand, 1.6 is not ready for public consumption so we don't "talk" about it publicly to incite a riot of download requests.
Jun 22 16:18:35 Podz yep
Jun 22 16:18:43 ryanduff relle: not at all
Jun 22 16:18:55 ryanduff not like what happened with 1.5
Jun 22 16:18:59 ryanduff that was a nightmare
Jun 22 16:19:02 masquerade relle, should we try to enforce this to an extent in the IRC room also?
Jun 22 16:19:09 shep|lappy yes
Jun 22 16:19:14 relle What do you all think?
Jun 22 16:19:15 Firas guys, guys
Jun 22 16:19:18 relle Good question.
Jun 22 16:19:25 Podz irc is for you geeks though ?
Jun 22 16:19:26 masquerade I say that it needs to be limited to an extent, but not completely blocked out
Jun 22 16:19:27 shep|lappy i think we should
Jun 22 16:19:34 Firas remember the people in IRC are free agents pretty much
Jun 22 16:19:34 Reorx It's folly to try to contain it.
Jun 22 16:19:36 masquerade Podz, the fact stands that normal users still stop by
Jun 22 16:19:39 Podz irc = problem solving ?
Jun 22 16:19:52 Reorx Not everyone reads the Codex, not everyone attends this meetup.
Jun 22 16:19:55 skippy We can't (nor should we) stop people from trying bleeding edge code. If someone comes into IRC for 1.6 help, it's totally up to whether anyone there can (and will) help
Jun 22 16:19:59 Podz masquerade:: totally agree, but then what if Ryan pops in ? and asks ?
Jun 22 16:20:13 westi we should probably not support users asking 1.6 Qs .. shouldn't stop us talking about it though
Jun 22 16:20:19 jalenack so 1.6 is strictly supported only on the wp-testers list?
Jun 22 16:20:27 masquerade Podz, then it continues, but conversation about grabbing 1.6 code or where to get it need to be stomped out
Jun 22 16:20:34 Podz it's not 1.6 - it's the "OOooohh factor" that needs stopping
Jun 22 16:20:38 Strings28 1.6 is pre-alpha. It's like vaporware right now.
Jun 22 16:20:38 Firas jalenack: it's not really supported at all, wp-testers is if you want to patch and write bugs etc
Jun 22 16:20:39 otaku42 Podz: may i suggest to follow all the proposals seen on madwifi-docs?
Jun 22 16:20:41 shep|lappy i think it should be banned from IRC for now
Jun 22 16:20:46 shep|lappy its too buggy
Jun 22 16:20:47 Reorx 1.6 should be strictly supported by anyone who wants to support 1.6 alpha code.
Jun 22 16:20:49 ryanduff Podz: irc = problem causing when it comes to users and 1.6
Jun 22 16:20:53 Podz mdwifi ?
Jun 22 16:21:01 relle mediawiki
Jun 22 16:21:12 Firas my suggestion is that since we agree about the forum point, let's move on--it's silly to try to contain what goes on in the IRC room or on people's blogs
Jun 22 16:21:12 otaku42 Podz: oops, sorry... i meant wordpress-docs
Jun 22 16:21:28 ryanduff why don't we just register a #wordpress-devel channel?
Jun 22 16:21:33 ryanduff and talk about it in there
Jun 22 16:21:34 relle But it is still a good thought to keep in the backs of your heads.
Jun 22 16:21:38 ryanduff announce it on the nightly list
Jun 22 16:21:40 relle #wordpress-dev would be better.
Jun 22 16:21:42 * cyphase msg's ChanServ
Jun 22 16:21:43 Reorx ryanduff: Because nothing would happen there.
Jun 22 16:21:43 masquerade I still think we should purposely put some obfuscating code in 1.6, to keep people away
Jun 22 16:21:44 relle I think that's brilliant.
Jun 22 16:21:46 masquerade :D
Jun 22 16:21:57 ryanduff so its only to the people who know of the nightlies and discuss it
Jun 22 16:21:57 skippy My proposal: anyone who wants to support 1.6 is free to make it know that they will do so. _THE OFFICIAL_ WordPress support forums DO NOT supprot 1.6 yet
Jun 22 16:22:07 Podz :)
Jun 22 16:22:09 relle looks like a good decision.
Jun 22 16:22:10 relle next?
Jun 22 16:22:12 cyphase
Jun 22 16:22:13 cyphase Status of 1.5.2/1.6
Jun 22 16:22:14 cyphase
Jun 22 16:22:37 relle Well, borked is one thing, but what about anything positive going on?
Jun 22 16:22:41 otaku42 Podz: that would be: 1. codex page: "use 1.6-alpha and you're on your own". 2. threads in the forum get a hint towards the codex page, threads closed. 3. change version postfix of 1.6 to something like "don't ask for support!" or thelike
Jun 22 16:23:00 relle That's the status as of right now, otaku42
Jun 22 16:23:09 relle What is happening with 1.6 status, folks?
Jun 22 16:23:13 masquerade otaku42, changing the version string will do nothing, that's been proven over and over, 1.6-alpha-do-not-use is about as explanatory as could be
Jun 22 16:23:15 Podz hint=shove :)
Jun 22 16:23:18 otaku42 relle: must have missed that, sorry
Jun 22 16:23:19 Firas relle, only two people know that
Jun 22 16:23:22 relle The chatter on the mailing list has been busy lately.
Jun 22 16:23:32 masquerade relle, not much has happened in the last few days, but the UI stuff looks like its happening, which is definitely a good point
Jun 22 16:23:34 relle I'm talking generally.
Jun 22 16:23:40 * alexsmith has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
Jun 22 16:23:46 relle UI=wysiwyg??
Jun 22 16:23:55 Firas no, general UI stuff
Jun 22 16:24:01 relle what is UI?
Jun 22 16:24:02 masquerade relle, nah, new look for the admin panel, usability concerns
Jun 22 16:24:05 Firas user interface
Jun 22 16:24:08 relle cool.
Jun 22 16:24:13 Reorx I don't like it.
Jun 22 16:24:16 * Podz thinks it's bad
Jun 22 16:24:22 masquerade define "it"
Jun 22 16:24:30 Podz drag/drop
Jun 22 16:24:30 Reorx Teh new admin is really slow.
Jun 22 16:24:43 Podz I really do not like it at all. Ugly as hell
Jun 22 16:24:47 Reorx Everything is open by default then collapses to preferences.
Jun 22 16:24:58 skippy can we theme the admin area, like we can our main public display?
Jun 22 16:25:06 Strings28 Yes.
Jun 22 16:25:07 skippy can folks turn off the fancy admin if they want?
Jun 22 16:25:13 Strings28 Check Codex.
Jun 22 16:25:14 Reorx You can't turn off the fancy admin.
Jun 22 16:25:21 masquerade skippy, the option isn't there, but maybe it should be?
Jun 22 16:25:28 shep|lappy yeah
Jun 22 16:25:35 Firas Reorx: that expand/collapse issue is just because it's pre-alpha
Jun 22 16:25:35 Strings28 No, options are a cop=out
Jun 22 16:25:45 Reorx There are feature changes in an effort to consolidate the post interface into one code path.
Jun 22 16:25:49 Strings28 Some options are, that is.
Jun 22 16:25:52 Anthony wow, i am just going to log this and learn...
Jun 22 16:25:53 relle http://codex.wordpress.org/Version_1.6
Jun 22 16:26:03 skippy Don't make it an _option_ -- make it a theme, just like /wp-content/themes/
Jun 22 16:26:43 masquerade skippy, the admin section would take insane amounts of time to theme, and the work would definitely have to be placed on someone other than Matt or Ryan, as they have enough on their hands
Jun 22 16:26:46 Firas I doubt that'd happen, but it's something to think about
Jun 22 16:26:56 Reorx masquerade: agreed.
Jun 22 16:27:07 skippy well, in the absence of "options", it's the only viable suggestion I can offer.
Jun 22 16:27:09 masquerade if it was to happen, there'd need to be someone else to push it along, there's no way Matt or Ryan will get around to it
Jun 22 16:27:36 Firas masquerade: I bet an enterprising plugin buffering the the output and dropping it can kinda/sorta work like an admin themer
Jun 22 16:27:37 jalenack I don't think it would be worth the work
Jun 22 16:27:51 Strings28 That would be an insane amount of work.
Jun 22 16:28:01 masquerade Firas, the end plugin would be larger than the admin section
Jun 22 16:28:09 Firas Well, the theming has to be done by others
Jun 22 16:28:10 Strings28 Currently the options views are dynamically generated, are they not?
Jun 22 16:28:11 Podz I can't wait for the "my admin screen is bust" support q's
Jun 22 16:28:20 masquerade Strings28, no, they're static
Jun 22 16:28:27 Firas Podz: that's why putting it in the core is a bad idea
Jun 22 16:28:31 Podz true
Jun 22 16:28:42 Strings28 So what are all of the tables handling all of the options then?
Jun 22 16:28:46 Strings28 Or was that for 1.2?
Jun 22 16:29:02 Reorx Maybe if the javascript tag that includes the collapsing sections was done on a plugin hook that could be unregistered? Then CSS could take over and normalize everything.
Jun 22 16:29:03 masquerade Strings28, the pages themselves are static
Jun 22 16:29:23 masquerade Reorx, currently, without javascript the admin panel degrades gracefully
Jun 22 16:29:48 Firas Next item: Developers/Hackers report on activities
Jun 22 16:29:49 skippy can we migrate this discussion to the hackers mailing list? Seems like there's no strong consensus.
Jun 22 16:29:49 Reorx Right, so output the script tag from a plugin hook so that it can be disabled.
Jun 22 16:29:50 cyphase Developers/Hackers report on activities
Jun 22 16:29:51 masquerade CSS controls all the items to begin with, javascript just modifies the CSS
Jun 22 16:29:53 skippy and we won't finish it here.
Jun 22 16:30:06 cyphase does that include plugins?
Jun 22 16:30:13 Podz I can't understand the admin priority given other concerns and i think it will end up causing a ton of forum posts, but hey ...what do i know :)
Jun 22 16:30:14 * shep|lappy agrees with skippy
Jun 22 16:30:17 relle This discussion needs to be continued on the hackers and testing mailing lists or on a channel somewhere.
Jun 22 16:30:33 Firas Ok, so
Jun 22 16:30:34 Reorx Yeah, because actual in-person discussion is not what this IRC Meetup is about.
Jun 22 16:30:41 relle So the summary of the status of development on 1.6 is that...there is a lot of work to go.
Jun 22 16:30:56 skippy Reorx: long drawn-out discussions with no resolution in sight are not what this is about.
Jun 22 16:30:57 relle Dreams of a July release might be premature.
Jun 22 16:31:08 Podz 2006 is my bet
Jun 22 16:31:11 Strings28 Ha ha. July? Surely.
Jun 22 16:31:15 masquerade relle, dreams of an august release are premature
Jun 22 16:31:22 Reorx And yet we can spend many hours discussing Codex topics with everyone back-patting and actuall performing no work there.
Jun 22 16:31:24 shep|lappy i'd say october or november
Jun 22 16:31:32 Firas Reorx: please
Jun 22 16:31:41 Firas Ok
Jun 22 16:31:48 Firas The Dev blog was down
Jun 22 16:31:52 Firas it's up now
Jun 22 16:31:53 cyphase fixed
Jun 22 16:31:53 Firas next item
Jun 22 16:31:55 cyphase
Jun 22 16:31:56 cyphase Codex Cleanup Dates: June 18-26, 2005 - status
Jun 22 16:31:56 Firas Codex Cleanup Dates: June 18-26, 2005 - status
Jun 22 16:31:57 cyphase
Jun 22 16:31:59 cyphase lol
Jun 22 16:32:06 relle The Cleanup is a major success.
Jun 22 16:32:08 skippy Codex Cleanup ++
Jun 22 16:32:17 relle Over 2000 maybe 3000 edits in the past few days alone.
Jun 22 16:32:18 * jalenack agrees
Jun 22 16:32:19 Firas Nice work guys
Jun 22 16:32:28 Podz Codex Team +++
Jun 22 16:32:33 Strings28 Very cool.
Jun 22 16:32:35 Firas Backup Week: July 23-30 News out next week!
Jun 22 16:32:39 relle Hurrays go to everyone, but I especially want to point out MichaelH who just finished categorizing almost 400 pages.
Jun 22 16:32:50 relle We still have a lot of work to do and we need YOU.
Jun 22 16:32:52 relle All of you.
Jun 22 16:32:57 Podz Well Done MichaelH !!
Jun 22 16:33:03 masquerade MichaelH++
Jun 22 16:33:04 jalenack MichaelH++
Jun 22 16:33:07 relle It continues until Sunday night, so get in there and get the work done.
Jun 22 16:33:07 Strings28 Fan-freaking-tastic.
Jun 22 16:33:08 Firas So Podz and Relle are the ones doing this, yes? backup week? What are you guys planning?
Jun 22 16:33:18 relle MichaelH: has no butt left or hands from all the hours of working on that.
Jun 22 16:33:21 skippy It would be swell if everyone could help pick off the low-hanging fruit.
Jun 22 16:33:32 skippy Find something you can answer -- even if it's a basic answer -- and apply it
Jun 22 16:33:34 Strings28 I wrote some 'how to write a plugin' tutorials for WP, could those be adopted/adapted into Codex?
Jun 22 16:33:45 relle yes
Jun 22 16:33:52 Firas Strings28: put them in your user page and have relle give em a look
Jun 22 16:33:55 relle But there are already articles on that, so you have to check.
Jun 22 16:34:00 Podz I'll produce backup guides for cpanel / vdeck / directadmin, hopefully Plesk. I need someone to write a commandline one though
Jun 22 16:34:05 Strings28 They're linked to from the Codex page.
Jun 22 16:34:12 relle Backup week is July 23-30.
Jun 22 16:34:14 skippy Podz: I can help with the comamnd line
Jun 22 16:34:14 Firas Podz: hah
Jun 22 16:34:18 Firas two lines?
Jun 22 16:34:22 relle We will be promoting this starting next week.
Jun 22 16:34:23 Firas ok, so skippy has that
Jun 22 16:34:23 Podz :D
Jun 22 16:34:27 relle Backup WordPress.
Jun 22 16:34:35 relle We will need a lot of help to promote this and get this rolling.
Jun 22 16:34:39 Podz I don't know CL :)
Jun 22 16:34:47 jalenack could you explain the Backup?
Jun 22 16:34:49 relle We want to spread it far and wide, so if you want to help, let me know on my codex user page
Jun 22 16:34:57 relle http://codex.wordpress.org/User:Lorelle
Jun 22 16:34:57 Podz jalenack:: ?
Jun 22 16:35:00 relle on the talk section.
Jun 22 16:35:03 skippy jalenack: make backup copies of your database and files.
Jun 22 16:35:17 jalenack ...o ok
Jun 22 16:35:21 Firas jalenack: it's to encourage people who don't do it much to step back and save their data
Jun 22 16:35:21 Podz to encourage them to do it before the sh*t hits the fan
Jun 22 16:35:32 relle This will be a big thing to tie the forum and Codex together.
Jun 22 16:35:57 Strings28 Is there any reason, since the Dashboard is there, that a monthly reminder couldn't be posted on one of the blogs?
Jun 22 16:36:00 relle If you or anyone you know has any plugins for quicky backups for the database, make sure you tell them to update them and make sure they work with all versions.
Jun 22 16:36:14 relle I think that's a great idea.
Jun 22 16:36:21 skippy Strings28: sure, but not everyone will read it.
Jun 22 16:36:31 relle I do.
Jun 22 16:36:33 jalenack skippy, that's our best chance
Jun 22 16:36:47 jalenack people read their Dashboards more than the forums
Jun 22 16:36:51 skippy make sure to style the text in red, so people SEE it
Jun 22 16:37:07 jalenack possible?
Jun 22 16:37:25 Strings28 Who here has a blog that's on the Dashboard?
Jun 22 16:37:32 Reorx I do.
Jun 22 16:37:40 Firas Reorx: what's your site?
Jun 22 16:37:44 Strings28 Would you mind posting a message every month?
Jun 22 16:37:46 Reorx asymptomatic.net
Jun 22 16:37:49 Firas oh!
Jun 22 16:37:52 skippy Ringmaster!
Jun 22 16:37:54 Podz Hi Owen :0
Jun 22 16:37:54 Firas owen?!
Jun 22 16:38:06 relle hi, owen!!!!
Jun 22 16:38:08 Podz heh ... :)
Jun 22 16:38:10 Reorx Yeah. Really f'ing tired of being told when a discussion is over, frankly.
Jun 22 16:38:38 skippy okay, the discussion about telling Reorx when discussions are over ... is over.
Jun 22 16:38:41 skippy =)
Jun 22 16:38:56 Strings28 Reorx: would you mind posting monthly to backup?
Jun 22 16:39:01 Reorx I'll gladly post whatever you like about backup month.
Jun 22 16:39:07 Reorx Or backing up monthly.
Jun 22 16:39:09 twidget Those responsible for the sacking... have been sacked
Jun 22 16:39:13 Strings28 Or should Matt be asked to do it? Can a small script be written to pust every Month 1st?
Jun 22 16:39:14 shep|lappy time to head home
Jun 22 16:39:15 shep|lappy night all
Jun 22 16:39:21 Podz byee
Jun 22 16:39:22 cyphase 'night
Jun 22 16:39:30 Reorx I'm sure that if someone emailed matt something for the dev blog, it would go online.
Jun 22 16:39:36 * shep|lappy (~shep@208.19.226.221) has left #wordpress-meetup
Jun 22 16:39:44 Podz what we need is a monthly forum post .. OMG I LOST MY BLOG!!!!
Jun 22 16:39:49 Firas lol
Jun 22 16:39:52 relle lol
Jun 22 16:39:53 Strings28 ROFL
Jun 22 16:39:55 cyphase lol
Jun 22 16:39:56 Firas social engineering
Jun 22 16:40:02 Podz yep :)
Jun 22 16:40:19 relle So if you want to join us in supporting this noble cause, sign up on my user page discussion and let's get cracking some heads who forget to back up.
Jun 22 16:40:23 relle like me.
Jun 22 16:40:26 Strings28 We could do it in a roll playing fashion and create different personas ;)
Jun 22 16:40:26 relle hard drive crashed last week.
Jun 22 16:40:37 Strings28 Bummer.
Jun 22 16:40:45 relle okay, Firas? next?
Jun 22 16:40:48 cyphase
Jun 22 16:40:48 cyphase The WP-Plugins.org developer plugin repository now has over 300 registered plugins. Time to get that directory going! Status?
Jun 22 16:40:48 cyphase
Jun 22 16:41:06 relle Reorx: you had a great deal going with redalt.
Jun 22 16:41:12 relle Are you going to help with this?
Jun 22 16:41:24 masquerade Not much on that without Matt here, unless a third-party is working on a directory
Jun 22 16:41:27 relle The plugins are a mess to find, even on the forum.
Jun 22 16:41:34 relle Is anyone working on this?
Jun 22 16:41:39 Reorx I emailed everything I had to matt, including superior code I did not publish.
Jun 22 16:41:47 * uNrEaLiTy has quit (Client Quit)
Jun 22 16:41:51 Anthony I would if I had another person to help
Jun 22 16:41:54 Firas I kinda am but won't make any promises, I think the best bet is to wait for matt
Jun 22 16:41:59 Anthony I have the time and stuff
Jun 22 16:42:07 masquerade Reorx, if you ever want something put in the core, Matt is not the place to mail it to
Jun 22 16:42:24 * mikelittle (~mike@spc1-stkp2-4-0-cust182.bagu.broadband.ntl.com) has joined #wordpress-meetup
Jun 22 16:42:38 Reorx This is for the plugin directory, not the core. But any alternative suggestions are welcome.
Jun 22 16:42:46 jalenack could we do something like: http://www.apple.com/downloads/dashboard/
Jun 22 16:42:52 jalenack to grab plugins
Jun 22 16:43:03 Firas Anyone have any other issues, or should we return to discussion about wp-admin?
Jun 22 16:43:14 Anthony So should I consider doing it or am I too new?
Jun 22 16:43:16 relle Anyone know the status of the one click manager plugin?
Jun 22 16:43:20 Firas jalenack: yeah that what be nice
Jun 22 16:43:25 relle Anthony: too new.
Jun 22 16:43:31 relle soon.
Jun 22 16:43:47 masquerade I think we need a replacement for wp-plugins.net, or someone who will volunteer to take over wp-plugins.net
Jun 22 16:43:47 Firas relle: it's going to be revamped soon and i'm kinda/sorta helping with something relating to that
Jun 22 16:43:52 Anthony Well, I have been using Wordpress for 4 years
Jun 22 16:43:56 Anthony just haven't made a skin :P
Jun 22 16:44:00 Reorx The one-click manager needs to be revamped before it is put on the site, as per a previous IRC discussion.
Jun 22 16:44:00 jalenack masquerade, I agree
Jun 22 16:44:03 Anthony so in that sense, not really that new...
Jun 22 16:44:16 Firas Reorx: i shared that part with zedrdave
Jun 22 16:44:18 jalenack I'd work on that
Jun 22 16:44:38 Reorx Firas: The unzip replacement? That was the big issue.
Jun 22 16:44:39 Firas he says wppm2 won't use shell_exec or fopen if curl is available
Jun 22 16:44:41 Firas does that sound better?
Jun 22 16:44:42 relle Then someone get together with zedrdave and see if we can get motivated with this.
Jun 22 16:44:50 Firas Reorx: yeah, shell_exec is out
Jun 22 16:44:52 Firas for WPPM2
Jun 22 16:45:03 masquerade Firas, my bets are that if wppm2 ever happens, it'll be way off in the future. We need something sooner than later
Jun 22 16:45:08 Reorx Hmm. Ok. That's my main barrier at the moment.
Jun 22 16:45:22 Reorx *Something* needs to go in /extend/plugins
Jun 22 16:45:26 * alexsmit1 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
Jun 22 16:45:37 relle That's the list matt was talking about.
Jun 22 16:45:41 Firas masquerade: well, if someone wants to splinter off and make a third plugin directory and see what they can do..
Jun 22 16:45:44 relle or a part of it.
Jun 22 16:45:49 skippy how about a list of the 5 oldest plugins in the repository with the most activity ?
Jun 22 16:45:51 Firas then Anthony is welcome to try to work off the svn etc
Jun 22 16:46:14 Firas if we're talking about /extend/plugins
Jun 22 16:46:15 Firas agreed
Jun 22 16:46:20 Firas something needs to go there
Jun 22 16:46:26 relle Okay, there are a couple of things that were put on the list during the meeting. New items.
Jun 22 16:46:29 relle # Possible hosting by wordpress.org of WordPress blogs
Jun 22 16:46:29 * element (~chatzilla@gw.cj.com) has left #wordpress-meetup
Jun 22 16:46:34 relle Anyone know about this?
Jun 22 16:46:37 jalenack i think that would be good for the widget browser thing
Jun 22 16:46:39 masquerade I think that even if we don't get a 1 click install going, /extend/plugins needs to be done
Jun 22 16:46:40 jalenack http://www.apple.com/downloads/dashboard/
Jun 22 16:46:59 jalenack because it works similarly to the theme viewer already in place
Jun 22 16:47:00 masquerade jalenack, hopefully something similar could go at /extend/plugins
Jun 22 16:47:05 Firas jalenack: that's not as good as update.mozillla.org
Jun 22 16:47:23 Firas which is what we want to beat :)
Jun 22 16:47:39 relle Possible hosting by wordpress.org of WordPress blogs
Jun 22 16:47:42 Anthony okay, do i need details on what exactly todo?
Jun 22 16:47:49 * westi yawns and heads off to bed
Jun 22 16:47:50 Anthony or just make a large list of plugins
Jun 22 16:47:52 westi night all
Jun 22 16:47:57 Podz why all this push to widen/extend ? I've said before that a period of consolidation would be good, yet I'm told that is a bad thing, but so is this pushing
Jun 22 16:47:59 Firas Anthony, let's return to it in a bit
Jun 22 16:48:06 * westi is now known as westi|gone
Jun 22 16:48:08 cyphase relle, i've heard something about that
Jun 22 16:48:09 Anthony alright
Jun 22 16:48:13 relle wp-plugins exist.
Jun 22 16:48:13 cyphase well, heard it mentioned
Jun 22 16:48:18 relle extend/plugins exist.
Jun 22 16:48:25 relle We need to get those consolidtated and more user friendly.
Jun 22 16:48:31 Podz 'we'
Jun 22 16:48:34 relle Let's NOT add another wp repository style site.
Jun 22 16:48:34 cyphase so it's definitley a talked about thing
Jun 22 16:48:35 masquerade we need something like update.mozilla.org
Jun 22 16:48:39 relle "WE"
Jun 22 16:48:55 * jalenack volunteers to work on that
Jun 22 16:48:56 Podz if it is on wp.org, there is no 'we'
Jun 22 16:49:03 skippy correct, podz.
Jun 22 16:49:04 masquerade Podz, good point
Jun 22 16:49:05 relle royal we.
Jun 22 16:49:08 Podz no
Jun 22 16:49:10 robla whee!
Jun 22 16:49:12 Podz no rotyal we
Jun 22 16:49:16 Firas Possible hosting by wordpress.org of WordPress blogs
Jun 22 16:49:21 Firas this is unlikely
Jun 22 16:49:24 Strings28 That's a bad choice.
Jun 22 16:49:28 Firas A WordPress branded blogging tool?
Jun 22 16:49:29 twidget masquerade: I've brought that up to Matt in the past, and he likes the idea, just says it's too big a task
Jun 22 16:49:30 relle It is already happening, but not with blogs.
Jun 22 16:49:31 skippy I doubt it will happen.
Jun 22 16:49:33 cyphase lol
Jun 22 16:49:34 jalenack what about http://wordpress.com/
Jun 22 16:49:44 Strings28 Wordpress.org could link to any other site doing that, but there needs to remain a core competancy.
Jun 22 16:49:54 Podz No royal 'we' was what I meant. WE (us here) need to be crystal about what can be done, by who and when.
Jun 22 16:50:05 relle agreed.
Jun 22 16:50:12 Podz other talk is pretty much useless
Jun 22 16:50:12 masquerade twidget, thing is, someone else could just as easily do it, but fall short of one of matt's uber high standards, and be ignored
Jun 22 16:50:30 relle What is a branded blogging tool?
Jun 22 16:50:32 relle What does that mean?
Jun 22 16:50:39 masquerade relle, its like blogger
Jun 22 16:50:48 skippy and I doubt Matt wants to conflate any-old-blog with the wordpress.org domain / brand.
Jun 22 16:50:51 * mdawaffe (~mdawaffe@qc07.theory.caltech.edu) has joined #wordpress-meetup
Jun 22 16:50:51 cyphase like a branded credit card i think
Jun 22 16:50:51 Firas or do they mean desktop client?
Jun 22 16:51:00 cyphase probably
Jun 22 16:51:01 jalenack couldn't we use http://wordpress.com/
Jun 22 16:51:07 Firas Last time I check wp already had a branded blogging tool :)
Jun 22 16:51:12 masquerade jalenack, wordpress.com is being transferred to matt
Jun 22 16:51:21 skippy If Matt wants to host celebrity blogs, that's his choice obviously; but Matt will never let skippy.wordpress.org happen
Jun 22 16:51:26 Firas who added the item, so we can clarify
Jun 22 16:51:33 relle Please!
Jun 22 16:51:37 Firas cyphase
Jun 22 16:51:39 skippy jalenack: the folks who own wordpress.com are holding out for big $$$ aren't they?
Jun 22 16:51:42 cyphase firas
Jun 22 16:51:46 cyphase Firas*
Jun 22 16:51:47 cyphase lol
Jun 22 16:51:47 Podz it's already bad enough that if wp.org goes down, so do so many other blogs
Jun 22 16:51:54 Firas cyphase: what were you referring to?
Jun 22 16:52:04 masquerade skippy, nah, they tried to give it to matt, and he shunned them, so they got all pissed, but now he agreed so they're giving it to him
Jun 22 16:52:09 jalenack it says its under the WP team's control now
Jun 22 16:52:16 cyphase Firas, when i said what?
Jun 22 16:52:16 skippy masquerade: oh
Jun 22 16:52:21 Firas masquerade: there were issues about ownership of the domain
Jun 22 16:52:33 relle Heeeeeellllloooooooooooooooooooooo
Jun 22 16:52:36 masquerade skippy, essentially, if you missed the post, the owner said matt was a complete ass to them
Jun 22 16:52:36 Podz "WP team" <----- who are they ?
Jun 22 16:52:42 relle Who listed about the branding tool on the meeting agenda?
Jun 22 16:52:42 masquerade Podz, matt
Jun 22 16:52:50 cyphase Podz, they are mysterious
Jun 22 16:52:57 skippy what relle ?
Jun 22 16:53:09 relle who listed the branding tool on the meeting agenda?
Jun 22 16:53:11 skippy oh.
Jun 22 16:53:14 Reorx It ws cyphase. Use the history tool...
Jun 22 16:53:17 Firas cyphase: when you listed the branded blogging tool thing
Jun 22 16:53:22 cyphase oh!
Jun 22 16:53:23 cyphase lol
Jun 22 16:53:32 Firas we're kinda stalled here for you
Jun 22 16:53:41 relle Okay, is there anything else on the agenda?
Jun 22 16:53:41 cyphase yea, i meant a desktop client
Jun 22 16:53:48 cyphase sorry about that, i got lost for a sec
Jun 22 16:53:54 Firas cyphase: ok
Jun 22 16:54:01 cyphase maybe it wasn't such a good idea :S
Jun 22 16:54:01 skippy oh, a "WordPress Ecto" ?
Jun 22 16:54:15 Strings28 Java?
Jun 22 16:54:23 masquerade cyphase, if it happens, it won't be by the official dev team
Jun 22 16:54:28 Firas well there are numerous open source ones out there
Jun 22 16:54:30 Strings28 If it was written in Java you might have something because it could be cross platform.
Jun 22 16:54:38 Firas replace their logo with yours :)
Jun 22 16:54:41 masquerade Strings28, but why reinvent the wheel?
Jun 22 16:54:42 Reorx I'm not sure about a desktop tool, but a WordPress subset of XMLRPC hooks that could be used sounds like a good idea.
Jun 22 16:54:52 Reorx ...for WP-specific features.
Jun 22 16:54:57 Firas Reorx: yeah
Jun 22 16:55:01 skippy Matt will rail against "subset".
Jun 22 16:55:17 masquerade Reorx, I say, if we're going to move to having WP specific features, we move away from XML-RPC all together
Jun 22 16:55:17 Reorx Matt should rally behind "trendsetting".
Jun 22 16:55:18 skippy and I rather agree... if it's not standard, should we be trying it?
Jun 22 16:55:18 cyphase masquerade, yea, i know
Jun 22 16:55:41 Strings28 Standards? What are those?
Jun 22 16:55:43 masquerade maybe something like the Atom API would be better, or some other XML based standard
Jun 22 16:55:52 skippy but I have no need for / interest in a desktop publishing tool.
Jun 22 16:55:54 robla http://json-rpc.org/
Jun 22 16:55:59 skippy ATOM would rock
Jun 22 16:56:07 Reorx Those higher-tech options are good considerations.
Jun 22 16:56:17 relle Okay, there is clearly a need for a dev only channel.
Jun 22 16:56:31 Firas relle: with due respect
Jun 22 16:56:31 relle Would someone like to help start the #wordpress-dev channel on the IRC?
Jun 22 16:56:33 Strings28 Sorry :)
Jun 22 16:56:34 Podz when do we call it WP-CMS ?
Jun 22 16:56:35 mdawaffe I'd just move it to the wp-hackers list
Jun 22 16:57:02 Firas if there aren't any other items i'd like to go back to talking about the 1.6 admin
Jun 22 16:57:07 relle I see a lot of people who really want to hash things out on a faster basis than email, so it might be a good idea.
Jun 22 16:57:18 Reorx That's what this was for, I thought.
Jun 22 16:57:28 relle Any last items to add to the agenda?
Jun 22 16:57:40 relle going?
Jun 22 16:57:44 masquerade Reorx, apparently this is for more business/future of WP type stuff
Jun 22 16:57:48 skippy I concur: revist wp-admin now
Jun 22 16:57:52 relle You all did great and we really got a lot of work done.
Jun 22 16:57:53 relle Hang on.
Jun 22 16:57:54 Reorx Apparently.
Jun 22 16:58:06 twidget Anyone need a log?
Jun 22 16:58:07 mdawaffe IRC is fast, yes, but development needs to be documented and thoughtfully discussed
Jun 22 16:58:09 skippy I have no other official business; so I don't mind going back to wp-admin
Jun 22 16:58:13 Podz I do
Jun 22 16:58:14 Firas masquerade: if there were the case we wouldn't be micromanaging the forums here
Jun 22 16:58:15 relle Thank you for being here. Now, I think that the meeting needs to be declared over before you get onto talking bout wp-admin stuff.
Jun 22 16:58:30 Firas * if that were the case
Jun 22 16:58:30 relle Anyone second the meeting being over?
Jun 22 16:58:33 Reorx Otherwise it might actually be documented. Wouldn't want that.
Jun 22 16:58:34 cyphase I
Jun 22 16:58:41 cyphase lol
Jun 22 16:58:52 twidget All opposed?
Jun 22 16:58:52 Podz As I posted to the lists, i think Codex needs the same clear protection that WP Code has. Right now, I don;t think it is clear
Jun 22 16:58:58 cyphase or should I say Yay?
Jun 22 16:58:58 cyphase ;)
Jun 22 16:59:03 relle Then let it continue and consider the business part of the discussion over and the development talk can continue.
Jun 22 16:59:11 Strings28 M33ting adjurned.
Jun 22 16:59:17 relle hang on.
Jun 22 16:59:22 cyphase Adjourned*
Jun 22 16:59:26 relle Podz: do you want to talk about this or add it to the agenda for next week.
Jun 22 16:59:28 Strings28 surely ;)
Jun 22 16:59:49 Strings28 Codex does need some protection/validation.
Jun 22 16:59:55 robla relle: I'd like to add user permissions overhaul to next week's agenda if you think it's appropriate
Jun 22 16:59:57 Podz Agenda next week is okay I guess.
Jun 22 17:00:11 relle Not my agenda to know if it's appropriate.
Jun 22 17:00:29 Strings28 Add it, it can always be removed if someone desides to do so.
Jun 22 17:00:35 twidget Anyone else need a log?
Jun 22 17:00:37 relle If it is a development discussion, it should be talked about on the mailing lists. If it is a status report or needs a massive democractic decision...
Jun 22 17:00:39 robla ah...it's a wiki, right
Jun 22 17:00:40 Anthony and i also want to bring up the plugin directory whenever someone is ready to talk about it
Jun 22 17:00:40 relle then it can go on the agenda.
Jun 22 17:00:43 Podz meetup could do with clarity too
Jun 22 17:01:01 relle thanks, no, twidget.
Jun 22 17:01:02 Podz we give ideas, but we get nothing back really
Jun 22 17:01:13 * twidget (Charles@adsl-0-44-149.shv.bellsouth.net) has left #wordpress-meetup ("Leaving")
Jun 22 17:01:22 Firas Ok, let's adjourn the meeting
Jun 22 17:01:23 Podz times / people - just like the keys conversation last week
Jun 22 17:01:24 relle Put them on the list.
Jun 22 17:01:28 relle For next week.
Jun 22 17:01:32 Firas then we can talk about the dev work
Jun 22 17:01:33 relle I agree podz.
Jun 22 17:01:38 mdawaffe Podz: I agree - the overall goals of the meetups need to be defined
Jun 22 17:01:43 Podz no
Jun 22 17:01:50 relle ONe last thing: http://codex.wordpress.org/Fundraising_and_Promotions
Jun 22 17:01:52 Podz Matt needs to talk to us :)
Jun 22 17:01:53 mdawaffe (having just arrived, I feel I can speak authoritatively :) )
Jun 22 17:01:54 relle If you want to help - sign up.
Jun 22 17:02:11 Reorx relle, I think we should go back and discover what this meetup was really intended for, because that's not the impression I got.
Jun 22 17:02:26 relle Then talk to matt. It was to talk about wordpress business.
Jun 22 17:02:40 Podz it was to exchange ideas
Jun 22 17:02:43 relle """to chat about all things WordPress."""
Jun 22 17:03:00 Firas why are dev ideas less meetingy than other ones
Jun 22 17:03:07 relle Development, Forums, contest, all the things related to the process of WordPress.
Jun 22 17:03:21 Podz I agree with everything in Mike's email - thats what I thought these would address
Jun 22 17:03:21 relle And share information on what is going on.
Jun 22 17:03:32 relle This is part of the "consolidation" of wordpress.
Jun 22 17:03:38 Podz and they are not
Jun 22 17:03:40 mdawaffe Firas: They're not, but we have here THE authorities on codex, forums right now
Jun 22 17:03:41 relle Keeping it open and letting people know what is going on.
Jun 22 17:03:50 mdawaffe we do not have THE authority for dev here
Jun 22 17:03:51 relle That is what I hope the meeting will accomplish.
Jun 22 17:04:08 Reorx And I never stifled your opportunity to discuss Codex issues, likewise I expected to be afforded the same opportunity.
Jun 22 17:04:17 mdawaffe (regardless of whether or not there shold be a THE authority on anything)
Jun 22 17:04:20 relle I'm not stifling.
Jun 22 17:04:28 Podz who is stifling ?
Jun 22 17:04:29 relle Firas is the dictator of the meeting.
Jun 22 17:04:40 Firas Ok, let's not verge into a meta-meta discussion
Jun 22 17:04:45 relle agreed.
Jun 22 17:04:46 Firas So
Jun 22 17:04:48 skippy Reorx: I apologize if you feel that I stepped on your toes re: wp-admin
Jun 22 17:04:51 relle end?
Jun 22 17:04:55 relle over?
Jun 22 17:04:59 mikelittle The contrast between the openness and collaboration of the Docu team and the Dev "team" is remarkable.
Jun 22 17:05:11 Firas Anthony: ok
Jun 22 17:05:20 Anthony I am here
Jun 22 17:05:23 Firas you wanted to work on something like improving wp-plugins.net correct?
Jun 22 17:05:23 Reorx mikelittle: It would be my intention to change that if I could.
Jun 22 17:05:33 Anthony Yes sir
Jun 22 17:05:39 skippy mikelittle: your email was spot-on
Jun 22 17:05:41 jalenack Me as well
Jun 22 17:05:54 mikelittle Thanks.
Jun 22 17:06:14 mdawaffe mikelittle: I want to preface this by saying I don't know anything, and to claim a little devil's advocacy
Jun 22 17:06:17 skippy so we fork, and make WebPress ... =)
Jun 22 17:06:26 Firas ok, meeting adjourned
Jun 22 17:06:29 Firas agreed relle?
Jun 22 17:06:30 mdawaffe mikelittle: is there anythiing wrong with committng, then discussing, then changing after the fact?
Jun 22 17:06:30 relle second?
Jun 22 17:06:35 skippy second
Jun 22 17:06:38 Firas ok
Jun 22 17:06:39 relle third?
Jun 22 17:06:43 mdawaffe third :)
Jun 22 17:06:43 Podz skippy:: I just want to support bloggers, not cms'ers
Jun 22 17:06:45 Firas done, it's over
Jun 22 17:06:49 relle Thanks everyone.
Jun 22 17:06:53 Podz </meetup>


Development Discussion After the Meeting

Jun 22 17:06:53 Firas now we can talk about mike's email
Jun 22 17:06:54 relle Now have at it devs!
Jun 22 17:06:59 skippy Reorx: what are your thoughts re: wp-admin
Jun 22 17:07:17 skippy Podz: fair enough; but the distinction will grow thin over time.
Jun 22 17:07:40 mikelittle mdawaffe: No not at all, but it's unlikely to happen.I don't believe the dev's knowledge of svn and revisio control is good enough to manage that easily.
Jun 22 17:07:55 Podz true....but the day will happen when WP=bloat and along will come a snappy litle app ..
Jun 22 17:08:12 * Strings28 (user@71-208-44-147.hlrn.qwest.net) has left #wordpress-meetup
Jun 22 17:08:24 skippy Podz: ... maybe? I think the development has been pretty well organized to prevent a lot of bloat.
Jun 22 17:08:27 Firas Anthony: are you familiar with svn?
Jun 22 17:08:35 Anthony no
Jun 22 17:08:37 mdawaffe mikelittle: fair enough
Jun 22 17:08:55 Anthony i can become very easily though
Jun 22 17:08:55 skippy Podz: it took me a while, but I now respect Matt's aversion to rolling too much into the core.
Jun 22 17:09:07 Reorx Sorry... Reading mikelittle's email. Seems more important that specific "how to get rid of collapseable panels" issue.
Jun 22 17:09:11 Firas Anthony: can you email me and once i get a framework up i'll get back to you? fd at firasd dot org--gimme a week or so
Jun 22 17:09:21 Anthony alright
Jun 22 17:09:49 skippy for the record, I realized it was a one-man show when Matt introduced nofollow with _no_ discussion.
Jun 22 17:09:53 Firas only matt has the authority to say what goes on in /extend/plugins but we can surely make wppm2 beat update mozilla org hands down :)
Jun 22 17:09:58 Podz skippy:: I won't upgrade again, that I know.
Jun 22 17:10:13 skippy Podz: you won't upgrade ... from 1.5.1.2 ?
Jun 22 17:10:17 Podz no
Jun 22 17:10:26 skippy why not?
Jun 22 17:10:30 skippy oh, for the admin
Jun 22 17:10:57 Podz I see not a single reason to do so. Everything being added is nothing for me, therefore it is bloat
Jun 22 17:11:05 skippy Podz: ah. Fair enough.
Jun 22 17:11:12 Podz complexity is not a total answer
Jun 22 17:11:16 jalenack Podz, I agree
Jun 22 17:11:26 Podz 1.2.2 was the last blog version
Jun 22 17:11:27 jalenack it hasn't impressed me much
Jun 22 17:11:52 skippy I understand your point of view, Podz; but folks like my mom will desperately appreciate an improved admin posting interface.
Jun 22 17:12:09 Reorx The concept of "improved" is also up for debate.
Jun 22 17:12:09 Firas mikelittle: thanks for posting that
Jun 22 17:12:24 Anthony there needs to be two versions of wordpress
Jun 22 17:12:25 skippy Reorx: improved == WYSIWYG, at least.
Jun 22 17:12:27 Podz from now it's different territory, different support. The forum questions have changed massively since 1.5 and will continue to do so. The forums cannot cope in their current form
Jun 22 17:12:29 skippy for her.
Jun 22 17:12:30 Firas Anthony: No
Jun 22 17:12:35 Anthony hardcore geek that wants a site, and one for the bloggers
Jun 22 17:12:36 Anthony lol
Jun 22 17:12:36 mikelittle skippy: I agree, but are pretty drag 'n' drop expanding dockable widgets anything to do with better usability?
Jun 22 17:12:58 Anthony or at least the option for some of the stuff to be taken out, i can understand where they are getting at
Jun 22 17:12:59 Reorx WYSIWYG is not necessarily an improvement.
Jun 22 17:13:09 Firas Reorx: how come?
Jun 22 17:13:12 Anthony i use it all anyways, so I could care less for myself
Jun 22 17:13:24 skippy Reorx: not for us; but for someone like my mom, who loses the HTML cheatsheet I made for her, it will help her.
Jun 22 17:13:35 Firas Reorx: the vast majority of users should never need to lean <a href> or <b> or <em>
Jun 22 17:14:22 Podz point is that is will not be a plugin. If I don;t use it, then it is bloat. it IS going in
Jun 22 17:14:25 skippy I appreciate the "options are bad" point of view. If a fully separate wp-admin theme is impractical, I think admin options to turn off the "pretty" fluff is important
Jun 22 17:14:39 Anthony i agree with skippy
Jun 22 17:14:47 relle BTW: I'm logging this and will post it on Matt's user page.
Jun 22 17:14:53 Firas lWell, WYSIWYG will surely be turn offable
Jun 22 17:15:02 Reorx I would want a "fluff off" option, too.
Jun 22 17:15:03 skippy please, relle. Were Matt here, I'd say the same still
Jun 22 17:15:10 relle Reorx: so it will be "recorded".
Jun 22 17:15:29 Firas Ok, here's the thing
Jun 22 17:15:38 Firas what's the draggable widgets harming?
Jun 22 17:15:47 Reorx They're really slow.
Jun 22 17:15:59 skippy even after you've locked them in place?
Jun 22 17:15:59 Firas ah
Jun 22 17:15:59 jalenack they don't look good at all
Jun 22 17:16:07 skippy I know, we rewrite the admin section in Flash! =)
Jun 22 17:16:17 Reorx Before you locak them into place. They bounch around as the javascript executes.
Jun 22 17:16:19 Podz are they good for people with impaired vision ? impaired hand coordination ?
Jun 22 17:16:33 Firas skippy: actually, that might not be a bad idea for a third party
Jun 22 17:16:35 jalenack rearranging them doesn't really mean anything
Jun 22 17:16:54 Anthony is there any plans to use ajax?
Jun 22 17:17:04 jalenack most of the widgets are about one line each, so it doesn't make much difference to + or - them
Jun 22 17:17:10 jalenack Anthony... why?
Jun 22 17:17:18 skippy Aside from "Wow, cool! Does YOUR blog do this?!" -- how many people will find value in re-arranging the panels?
Jun 22 17:17:21 Reorx Rearranging and expending/collapsing are reasonably speedy. It's the initial load that ain't great.
Jun 22 17:17:47 jalenack ya
Jun 22 17:17:49 Reorx The real advantage here is that the post editor is consolidated into one physical page instead of two.
Jun 22 17:17:53 Anthony jalenack - it wasn't a why question
Jun 22 17:18:11 Anthony there are certain things that it could be used for, but i guess some would consider it "bloating"
Jun 22 17:18:23 Podz skippy:: I see this stuff purely as a "MT admin looks nicer" thing
Jun 22 17:18:26 Firas Reorx: what do you think about the hackers thread of just putting a save button rather than the 2 or 3 each screen currently has?
Jun 22 17:18:39 * Firas isn't sure if owen is on wp-hackers anymore
Jun 22 17:18:54 Reorx I'm not.
Jun 22 17:18:56 Firas I wish Matt would chime in on that thread
Jun 22 17:19:07 skippy Podz: Interestingly enough, a friend of mine came to WP _specifically_ because the WP admin section is all text and CSS -- no images. It loads super snappy on his 14.4 dialup
Jun 22 17:19:25 Podz and thats why I like it to
Jun 22 17:19:27 skippy Reorx: I saw only that you disconnected -- did you post why?
Jun 22 17:19:31 mikelittle Another consideration is that I can currently post from a lightweight browser (e.g. lynx) that's not gonna be true of the new interface.
Jun 22 17:19:57 Reorx skippy: Nope. I didn't. But I think one of the reasons why might now be clear.
Jun 22 17:20:01 Podz does it make it better, or just make the OOoooooh factor go up?
Jun 22 17:20:07 Firas Reorx: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web.wordpress.devel/2744
Jun 22 17:20:18 skippy Reorx: fair enough.
Jun 22 17:20:18 * jalenack much prefers the 1.5 write panel
Jun 22 17:20:25 Reorx I like that about the WP admin too, light and clean. But that doesn't sell blog software. Or something.
Jun 22 17:20:46 Podz it DOES make for more support problems
Jun 22 17:20:48 Firas http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web.wordpress.devel/2746
Jun 22 17:21:15 Reorx Hmm. I don't know. You would certainly hav eto move the post status radios closer to the save button.
Jun 22 17:21:43 Firas mikelittle: if the new admin interface won't work from lynx, that's an important issue and should be discussed as you said
Jun 22 17:21:43 skippy Podz: which makes for more support?
Jun 22 17:21:55 Podz more complex admin
Jun 22 17:22:23 skippy Podz: does "more complex admin" mean "movable widgets" or "no save+continue" button? (just making sure I understand fully)
Jun 22 17:22:28 Podz we get no questions about it right now - that will change won't it. Other questions will not reduce so forum load increased
Jun 22 17:22:41 Podz yes
Jun 22 17:22:49 skippy yes, both?
Jun 22 17:23:30 Firas Podz: the movable widgets is matt's thing, no save+continue is my/skippy's thing, the former is official in the code right now
Jun 22 17:23:41 Podz this will be a significant change. No doubt pushed through with something to make people upgrade. Such a massive change has big implications for support
Jun 22 17:23:43 skippy that's a good observation, Podz. Aside from someone who accidentally deleted their saved post's contents and then re-saved, I've not seen any wp-admin questions
Jun 22 17:24:16 mikelittle I would have thought that desktop blogging applications fit the role of WYSIWYG-editing-before-posting need far better than a web based tool.
Jun 22 17:24:33 skippy alas, XMLRPC posting is crippled.
Jun 22 17:24:43 skippy XMLRPC posting doesn't trigger the proper plugins.
Jun 22 17:24:52 Podz why ?
Jun 22 17:24:57 skippy and the apps all seem flakey. And no one knows what an XMLRPC endpoint is
Jun 22 17:25:00 Reorx Hence the prior discussion on improving and augmenting support for those.
Jun 22 17:25:20 mikelittle So, that should be fixed. Rather than replaced?
Jun 22 17:25:50 skippy Podz: can you (without much effort) make a list of five things that are generally consdired "broken" in the forums? That is, what gets lots of support questions?
Jun 22 17:25:58 Reorx Well, it should be fixed. I think there is also room for improvement.
Jun 22 17:25:59 skippy I know blog-by-email is flakey at best.
Jun 22 17:26:16 Firas everyone wants better image and media upload handling right?
Jun 22 17:26:20 skippy yes
Jun 22 17:26:23 Podz rewrite rules / Image / Images / More Images /
Jun 22 17:26:24 skippy Absolutely.
Jun 22 17:26:26 Reorx Gah! I finally get a camera phone and blog-by-email is flakey.
Jun 22 17:26:36 Firas Podz: rewriterules?
Jun 22 17:26:39 Firas what about them?
Jun 22 17:26:46 skippy Reorx: flakey insofar as people either succeed right away, or they never do
Jun 22 17:27:14 Podz people want to do strange things, or have weird permalink structures.
Jun 22 17:27:22 skippy Image upload; image browsing; image inserting -- those should get priority
Jun 22 17:27:24 Reorx skippy: Well, it works, but not with the photos. I had a thing (replaced the old file) that did, and I don't know where that is now. Overwritten by 1.5.
Jun 22 17:27:28 Reorx Mmm... Images...
Jun 22 17:27:36 Podz But Image handling to a point is in 1.5 and it's been ignored
Jun 22 17:28:01 Podz remove it, or improve it. One or the other. Right now it's worse than half-assed
Jun 22 17:28:06 Firas even if permissions don't let you upload images
Jun 22 17:28:14 Firas you should be able to scan a directory for jpegs
Jun 22 17:28:23 Reorx Firas: That's acutally a huge problem. Bigger than you would imagine.
Jun 22 17:28:27 Firas and insert them be clicking on a thumbnail
Jun 22 17:28:30 Reorx Try explaining chmod to my mom.
Jun 22 17:28:31 mikelittle Another decision made without discussion. No-one wold have agreed to move it out of the editing flow.
Jun 22 17:28:34 Reorx "Eh?"
Jun 22 17:28:51 Firas Reorx: yeah, but the question is
Jun 22 17:28:54 Podz mikelittle:: true
Jun 22 17:29:02 skippy WordPress should set permissions appropriately on all files it writes to disk.
Jun 22 17:29:06 Firas should that mean wp shouldn't support image handling at all?
Jun 22 17:29:17 * skippy realizes he should fix his gravatar plugin to do the same..
Jun 22 17:29:24 Firas I know some fine plugins out there do this wonderfully
Jun 22 17:29:34 Reorx skippy: Difficult on files that are supposed to go into directories that WP has no permission to write in.
Jun 22 17:29:37 mikelittle I would vote for something like iimage browser moving into core/
Jun 22 17:29:43 Firas but parts of them should be rolled into the core
Jun 22 17:29:47 Firas mikelittle: exactly
Jun 22 17:30:23 Podz every blog uses images. Not every blogger wants a drag/drop interface
Jun 22 17:30:29 skippy Reorx: WP should check perms before writing, and throw a sensible error. I did that for my gravatars plugin. It's a lot of boring code, but it works.
Jun 22 17:30:40 Reorx skippy: true
Jun 22 17:30:50 Reorx You guys realize that last I looked I was on the hook for this feature in the 1.6 Features list on Codex?
Jun 22 17:30:54 Firas Reorx: once an image has been uploaded even via ftp surely wp can facilitate insertion
Jun 22 17:31:13 Firas on the hook as in?
Jun 22 17:31:22 skippy Firas: making thumbnails is a pain, though, if the user sends a full-size image
Jun 22 17:31:27 Reorx As in, "scheduled and asked my Matt to write"
Jun 22 17:31:33 Firas hmmm
Jun 22 17:31:35 Reorx s/my/by
Jun 22 17:31:48 skippy Reorx: and what happened? A resounding nothing?
Jun 22 17:31:50 Firas so it's something that's to be implemented
Jun 22 17:31:55 skippy not, as in, you did nothing
Jun 22 17:32:00 skippy but no follow-up from Matt?
Jun 22 17:32:12 Reorx No... There's code. I sent him email asking some critical questions. And...
Jun 22 17:32:35 Reorx http://test.asymptomatic.net/
Jun 22 17:33:18 Reorx I tried to get some folks at #wordpress to offer opinions on it before, but no dice there, either.
Jun 22 17:33:32 Firas Reorx: post to wp-hackers?
Jun 22 17:33:44 skippy if there are real outstanding concerns for core functions, I think we should all approach matt to concentrate on those.
Jun 22 17:33:56 Reorx Firas: Probably a good idea.
Jun 22 17:34:01 mdawaffe Reorx: nice
Jun 22 17:34:04 skippy He can delegate all he wants; but the fact remains that specific advertised features need some imrpovement.
Jun 22 17:34:19 Firas Reorx: ooh, adding an image and joining it to the post meta is something i had thought of for a while
Jun 22 17:34:22 Firas is that what it does?
Jun 22 17:34:24 * Firas checks
Jun 22 17:34:38 Reorx The admin page (as you might expect) has changed significantly since I wrote this stuff.
Jun 22 17:34:51 Reorx Well, this isn't just adding an image to the post meta.
Jun 22 17:35:15 Reorx Each image has its own post-id and permalink URL. The physical location of the image is in post-meta.
Jun 22 17:35:43 Firas right, so you can access it off post-slug/image
Jun 22 17:35:45 Firas that sounds cool
Jun 22 17:35:50 Reorx Yeah.
Jun 22 17:36:28 Firas So yeah, post to wp-hackers and let's check it out :)
Jun 22 17:36:33 Reorx A lot of why this seems so hush-hush is because I wanted to get a core set of working features to comment on based on Matt's suggestions before everyone started suggesting things willy-nilly.
Jun 22 17:36:39 Firas ahh ok
Jun 22 17:36:52 skippy willy-nilly++
Jun 22 17:36:58 Reorx usually.  :)
Jun 22 17:37:05 mdawaffe Reorx: how do you reference the image from an object post? Put it's uri in post_content?
Jun 22 17:37:39 Reorx No... There are template tag functions for that. Also two new theme templates.
Jun 22 17:37:55 Reorx The reason is so that you can write descriptions for your images and also get commetns on each image.
Jun 22 17:38:14 mdawaffe but when you make a new object, how do you get the actual image into the object?
Jun 22 17:38:22 Reorx Ah.
Jun 22 17:38:23 * mdawaffe is missing something
Jun 22 17:38:38 Reorx You don't make a new object post. There is an interface for adding images to posts.
Jun 22 17:38:46 mdawaffe ah!
Jun 22 17:38:52 mdawaffe magic
Jun 22 17:39:04 Reorx This interface looks like it's adidng things to posts, but it actually creates sub-post object posts with all the data.
Jun 22 17:39:27 mdawaffe gotcha
Jun 22 17:39:30 mdawaffe I don't suppose you
Jun 22 17:39:39 mdawaffe 'll push up a screenshot when you make this more pub?
Jun 22 17:39:41 Firas Reorx: this extends to eg videos and other attachments too right?
Jun 22 17:39:50 Firas in its final form i mean
Jun 22 17:39:55 Reorx Coincidentally, this interface is integrated into the post interface, as previously requested.
Jun 22 17:40:28 Reorx I have screenshots online on my blog of certain aspects of the interface that I stole from Exhibit, but yeah, I'll all about making this stuff public when I think I've done good.
Jun 22 17:40:51 mdawaffe rawk
Jun 22 17:41:20 Reorx Firas: Yes, you should be able to define playback methods for each content type. You will also be able to pull from alternate sources, like Flickr, seemlessly through the integrated image browser.
Jun 22 17:41:45 skippy totally off-topic, here, but way back in pre-1.5 Matt rolled in "auto-save", only to roll it out. Would a separate table for drafts (posts and pages) help make auto-save easier? And, to boot, make it possible to save draft pages?
Jun 22 17:41:53 Reorx ...provided you have a plugin that hooks WordPress' media stuff to Flickr, which I will probably end up writing just to test the concept.
Jun 22 17:42:38 Reorx Didn't the guy (Gregory?) at twilightuniverse.com make an autosave plugin that works?
Jun 22 17:42:52 skippy dunn
Jun 22 17:42:54 skippy dunno
Jun 22 17:43:07 skippy sorry, didn't mean to interrupt.
Jun 22 17:43:14 skippy your work looks awesome, Reorx.
Jun 22 17:43:19 mdawaffe Reorx: something is afoot at http://asymptomatic.net/wp : http://asymptomatic.net/wp/_categories
Jun 22 17:43:45 mdawaffe just letting you know if you didn't already - no need to elaborate :)
Jun 22 17:43:45 Reorx Thanks, skippy. Validation is something I've been missing lately.
Jun 22 17:44:01 jalenack Reorx: http://twilightuniverse.com/2005/04/twilight-autosave/
Jun 22 17:44:26 Reorx mdawafe: Yeah, that's the WP-Cache plugin in action. Woo-hoo.
Jun 22 17:44:43 Reorx Lots of issues since the server migration. All WP software. <sigh>
Jun 22 17:45:06 Reorx jalenack: Yeah, I think that's it.
Jun 22 17:48:18 Reorx Alright. Considering I had given up on this WordPress madness, and now I'm 45 minutes late from sitting with the kids, I'm calling it a day.
Jun 22 17:49:18 skippy g'night all.
Jun 22 17:49:21 skippy I'm out, too.
Jun 22 17:49:23 * skippy (~skippy@skippy.net) has left #wordpress-meetup ("Free as in Puppies!")
Jun 22 17:49:50 Firas masquerade, were you logging?
Jun 22 17:49:57 mdawaffe Reorx: seeya - nice work on the Exhibit 2.0 stuff
Jun 22 17:50:07 Firas thanks Reorx, cool stuff
Jun 22 17:51:17 Reorx Thanks guys. Hopefully it all pans out.
Jun 22 17:51:30 * Firas leaves for now
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Jun 22 18:04:19 mdawaffe damn - he's gone
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Jun 22 18:12:10 relle I'm logging.
Jun 22 18:12:17 relle Are you all done?
Jun 22 18:14:04 tunicwriter [crickets]
Jun 22 18:14:33 relle sounds like no one is home.
Jun 22 18:14:42 relle </closelog>

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