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IRC Meetups/2005/June/June29RawLog

Jun 29 15:56:31 <Podz> <meetup>
Jun 29 15:56:42 <Firas> heh
Jun 29 15:56:42 <photomatt> this is actually an interesting meeting because I'm trying to get something new started here in SF
Jun 29 15:56:48 <photomatt> WordPress Wednesday
Jun 29 15:57:09 <photomatt> right now two JS hackers from jotspot and the Dojo project are over at my place hacking away
Jun 29 15:57:31 <tunicwriter> Add sex appeal to it: Wordpress Hump Wednesday...
Jun 29 15:57:34 <Firas> What's WordPress Wednesday?
Jun 29 15:57:35 <photomatt> we're going to dojo-enable the editing textareas to be resizable and some other goodies
Jun 29 15:57:49 <geoffrey> dojo?
Jun 29 15:57:59 <Podz> for 1.6 ?
Jun 29 15:58:09 <MCincubus> http://dojotoolkit.org/  ??
Jun 29 15:58:10 <photomatt> http://dojotoolkit.org/
Jun 29 15:58:14 * ColdForged (~cf@cpe-069-133-153-197.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #wordpress-meetup
Jun 29 15:58:18 <photomatt> Podz: yes for 1.6
Jun 29 15:58:21 <mdawaffe> (can we call you sensei?)
Jun 29 15:58:50 <ryanduff> heh
Jun 29 15:58:54 <photomatt> let's start with the first agenda item
Jun 29 15:58:55 <Podz> ColdForged:: http://dojotoolkit.org/ - mentioned just before you arrived
Jun 29 15:59:02 * h0bbel (h0bbel@h0bbel.gallery) has joined #wordpress-meetup
Jun 29 15:59:04 <ColdForged> (thx)
Jun 29 15:59:08 <photomatt> the /extend/plugins directory
Jun 29 15:59:16 <photomatt> no progress has been made since last week
Jun 29 15:59:28 <photomatt> so nothing new to report there
Jun 29 15:59:39 <mdawaffe> photomatt: this is you, or is it someone else?
Jun 29 15:59:55 <mdawaffe> re: extend/plugins
Jun 29 16:00:04 <photomatt> just me right now. Firas is working on something similar and I'd be happy to have some help with what we're doing
Jun 29 16:00:13 <photomatt> he's working on something for drdave (?)
Jun 29 16:00:45 <Firas> yeah, i'd be happy to help out with the official directory but i also don't want to limit to the svn repo in terms of listinsg
Jun 29 16:01:00 <Podz> when you say help, I assume it's coding ?
Jun 29 16:01:21 <photomatt> yes
Jun 29 16:01:50 <Podz> that rules me out then :)
Jun 29 16:02:40 <MCincubus> I think Podz knows how to code, but doesn't realize it yet. Learning my osmosis, or something.
Jun 29 16:02:53 <photomatt> heh
Jun 29 16:02:57 <Podz> ph-what ?
Jun 29 16:03:03 <photomatt> okay moving forward
Jun 29 16:03:09 * SchroedingersRat (schroeding@Schroedinger.user) has joined #wordpress-meetup
Jun 29 16:03:14 <mdawaffe> Podz: ph-otomatt
Jun 29 16:03:22 <Podz> ahhhhhh
Jun 29 16:03:45 <mdawaffe> a quick-link syntax would be divine: Template Tag or <codex Template Tag />
Jun 29 16:03:50 <photomatt> I agree
Jun 29 16:03:53 <photomatt> that would be groovy
Jun 29 16:03:57 <mdawaffe> pre_post filter
Jun 29 16:03:59 <mdawaffe> a plugin
Jun 29 16:04:02 <photomatt> okay, let's do it
Jun 29 16:04:05 <mdawaffe> k
Jun 29 16:04:08 <photomatt> is the bbpress plugin stuff checked in?
Jun 29 16:04:09 <skippy> w00t!
Jun 29 16:04:18 <photomatt> I remember it may try to autoload everything in a folder
Jun 29 16:04:25 <photomatt> like WP plugins without activation
Jun 29 16:04:30 <mdawaffe> photomatt: oh, I thought it was
Jun 29 16:04:37 <photomatt> oh well, mdawaffe and I can look at that
Jun 29 16:04:37 <mdawaffe> ah - yes - it does do that
Jun 29 16:04:44 <photomatt> it's easy enough
Jun 29 16:04:50 <skippy> is there a preference for quick-link syntax? [[]] == bbPress. < /> == faux HTML.
Jun 29 16:05:03 <geoffrey> i say faux XHTML
Jun 29 16:05:04 <skippy> s/bbPress/bbcode/
Jun 29 16:05:05 <photomatt> I really like the [[]] syntax
Jun 29 16:05:11 <mdawaffe> [[]]++
Jun 29 16:05:15 <Podz> ack ....
Jun 29 16:05:21 <geoffrey> well, the rest of BBPress uses XHTML
Jun 29 16:05:21 <photomatt> it's probably one of my fav things about mediawiki
Jun 29 16:05:22 <Podz> <---ignore :)
Jun 29 16:05:24 <PotterSys> [[]]++;
Jun 29 16:05:33 <photomatt> yes but this is JUST for linking to the codex
Jun 29 16:05:33 <geoffrey> so for continually...
Jun 29 16:05:34 <westi> use the [[]] media wikik syntax with the same abilities
Jun 29 16:05:37 <geoffrey> true
Jun 29 16:05:40 <MCincubus> yeah, [[]] is easy for noobs
Jun 29 16:05:43 <westi> [[]]++
Jun 29 16:05:45 <mdawaffe> photomatt: yes - only for codex
Jun 29 16:05:48 <Morydd> less confusing I think.
Jun 29 16:05:56 <robla> [[]]++
Jun 29 16:05:56 <skippy> all in favor of [[]] for codex quick-link :
Jun 29 16:05:57 <Firas> well the most important part of it is
Jun 29 16:05:57 <skippy> me
Jun 29 16:06:00 <relle> ME
Jun 29 16:06:02 <photomatt> this isn't generic linking structure, [blah blah] wouldn't work
Jun 29 16:06:03 <westi> ME
Jun 29 16:06:04 <Firas> it's consistent with the codex linking way
Jun 29 16:06:08 <relle> Sorta.
Jun 29 16:06:09 <ColdForged> ++
Jun 29 16:06:12 <Firas> ok
Jun 29 16:06:12 <skippy> all opposed:
Jun 29 16:06:13 <photomatt> cool, let's put it on the todo then
Jun 29 16:06:21 <relle> Codex is [ ] for external and [[]] for internal.
Jun 29 16:06:22 <mdawaffe> k
Jun 29 16:06:22 <geoffrey> I'd prefer XHTML for continually, but everyone seems to be against me ;)
Jun 29 16:06:24 <relle> So choose one.
Jun 29 16:06:28 <skippy> motion carried.
Jun 29 16:06:31 <Firas> * Status of new WP.org logo?
Jun 29 16:06:41 <geoffrey> []
Jun 29 16:07:03 <photomatt> new logo is waiting for the new design, which is currently on hold because more important stuff is taking precendence
Jun 29 16:07:13 <geoffrey> like 1.6?
Jun 29 16:07:20 <MCincubus> Good. Important stuff is important.
Jun 29 16:07:26 <geoffrey> lol.
Jun 29 16:07:32 <Jalenack> is there a link with current status of the image?
Jun 29 16:08:01 <MCincubus> http://photomatt.net/temp/ but nothing really to discuss
Jun 29 16:08:07 <mdawaffe> photomatt: will the new whatnot be rolled out before or with the next version?
Jun 29 16:09:18 <SuperLag> mdawaffe: the new whatnot? :)
Jun 29 16:09:35 <mdawaffe> SuperLag: :) logo/design
Jun 29 16:09:58 <mdawaffe> but i suppose it doesn't really matter
Jun 29 16:10:04 <mdawaffe> nexT?
Jun 29 16:10:07 <photomatt> yeah it's not really a release holdup
Jun 29 16:10:19 <photomatt> wordpress openness issues
Jun 29 16:11:15 <tunicwriter> i.e.: more devs? more telling the community what's going on so we aren't caught off guard? more suggestions taken in from the community?
Jun 29 16:11:21 <MCincubus> I think having a bigger group of people to act as advisers to you and Ryan would be good. People who know how what patches are worth having and can expedite them.
Jun 29 16:12:03 <Firas> so more people with authority on the bug tracker.
Jun 29 16:12:15 <mdawaffe> I like (I believe it was photomatt's) idea about partitioning stuff off to other people. The issue, then, is finding people willing to commit (in both senses)
Jun 29 16:12:36 <westi> how about opening up svn access - limited to a particular branch of svn for people working on new stuff projects like the new upload stuff so people can see whats in progress
Jun 29 16:12:47 <westi> i believe svn allows you to lock down what people can commit to
Jun 29 16:13:18 <tunicwriter> I like the idea of having possibly separate partitions/depts. that work on such and such but still report to matt... No doubt a leader is needed, but he doesn't need to do all the work, etc.
Jun 29 16:13:27 <Firas> westi: would that be fixing a real problem? it sounds like a technical solution to a social organization problem
Jun 29 16:14:14 <westi> Firas: it should help make more public who is working on what and allow people to see whats going on and what they can help with.
Jun 29 16:14:20 <robla> the wp openness thread is what prompted me to write this: http://codex.wordpress.org/Development_Planning
Jun 29 16:14:24 <Firas> I think this sorta stuff is great: http://boren.nu/archives/2005/06/27/wp-commit-digest-for-june-17-27/
Jun 29 16:14:40 <photomatt> the #1 problem from my point of view is the people that are delegated to don't follow htrough
Jun 29 16:14:40 <westi> Firas: i agree
Jun 29 16:14:53 <tunicwriter> photomatt: perhaps take on a "Community Liaison" as well... Someone devoted to taking in ideas from the community, etc.
Jun 29 16:14:54 <skippy> I _loved_ Ryan's commit summary.
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Jun 29 16:15:13 <robla> I think part of the problem is that there's not intermediate steps between "hey, I have an idea", and "why isn't someone coding this?"
Jun 29 16:15:22 <MCincubus> tunicwriter, yeah, that was my idea too... 6-12 such people
Jun 29 16:15:22 <westi> photomatt: that is _never_ inspiring... especially considering the ammount of your time that must waste
Jun 29 16:15:39 <tunicwriter> MCincubus: makes sense to me.
Jun 29 16:15:48 <skippy> Is there a problem with having a few more people with commit access? SVN can always be "rolled back", can't it? So if someone abuses their commit access, it will be logged and can be removed.
Jun 29 16:16:02 <photomatt> except with rare exceptions, everyone flakes. the people who don't flake as much are the dev team and get more responsibility
Jun 29 16:16:27 <photomatt> skippy: socially, adding commit is easy but taking it away is a BIG deal to people
Jun 29 16:16:35 <photomatt> as I said, I don't want it to be a status thing
Jun 29 16:16:53 <skippy> then lay down clear rules on what is and is not permitted re: check ins.
Jun 29 16:17:05 <skippy> and make sure you and ryan follow those rules, too, to set the example.
Jun 29 16:17:15 <skippy> (that comment comes with no implications)
Jun 29 16:17:16 <MCincubus> "Ye shall know them by their fruits."
Jun 29 16:17:25 <skippy> (ie: I'm not saying you don't walk the walk)
Jun 29 16:17:33 <photomatt> okay think about bureaucracy, where does it come from?
Jun 29 16:17:45 <photomatt> pretend WP was a little company
Jun 29 16:17:55 <MCincubus> public or private?
Jun 29 16:18:04 <SuperLag> from people screwing up :)
Jun 29 16:18:07 <photomatt> bureaucracy would come from people who weren't up to par in their actions
Jun 29 16:18:09 <photomatt> SuperLag: exactl
Jun 29 16:18:11 <photomatt> *exactly
Jun 29 16:18:34 <photomatt> if you have the right people "on the bus" so to speak, you don't need complicated processes that weigh everyone down
Jun 29 16:18:52 <photomatt> these people are extremely rare, which is why hiring in startups is so hard
Jun 29 16:19:06 <skippy> personally, I think that's a non-starter. By your own declaration all poeple flake. You will flake. You will make mistakes. How does keeping commit access to you and ryan prevent the mistakes you're worrying about?
Jun 29 16:19:32 <Firas> may i suggest a different starting point
Jun 29 16:19:33 * h0bbel doesn't believe commit access is the issue at hand though
Jun 29 16:19:35 <mdawaffe> I don't think it's the mistakes, but rather the eventual lack of commitment
Jun 29 16:20:02 <Firas> ok, commit access changes are undesirable/controversial at the moment, what about more bug/patch management
Jun 29 16:20:24 <photomatt> everyone makes mistakes, that's not an issue
Jun 29 16:21:03 <mdawaffe> Firas: something like a patch assessor to say "here, photomatt, put these in. They're good."?
Jun 29 16:21:07 <photomatt> it's just a matter of optimizing things so everyone can contribute, but there isn't a lot of administrative overhead in monitoring things
Jun 29 16:21:11 <skippy> the issue is "complicated processes"... I thought revision control was an attempt to alleviate some issues with the "weighty" process of managing contributions...
Jun 29 16:21:18 <westi> maybe we need some mozilla like thing on bugs/patches where people are able to mark things as reviewed /tested to speed up there management
Jun 29 16:21:39 <photomatt> the bug system has functioned very well in the past for that
Jun 29 16:21:41 <Firas> mdwaffe: yeah, there are lots and lots of open bugs on wp, it would be nice to mark them wontfix, or assign a version, or seek patches, etc
Jun 29 16:21:57 <MCincubus> photomatt, to be honest, it worked better on Mantis...
Jun 29 16:21:57 <photomatt> we need someone gardening the bugs like we have codex gardeners
Jun 29 16:22:05 * robla looks for a Louis Villa essay on the bug management subject which is apropos
Jun 29 16:22:18 <photomatt> I think to some extent Mantis was more comfortable in some ways
Jun 29 16:22:23 <SuperLag> Here is my 2 cents. Commit access can/should be made available to those who *prove* themselves, but there has to be adequate QA/QC in place to watch, because people do/will make mistakes.
Jun 29 16:22:30 <photomatt> but I think the development of trac matches more what we're doing long-term
Jun 29 16:22:40 * masquerade (~bobby@pcp009136pcs.dover01.de.comcast.net) has joined #wordpress-meetup
Jun 29 16:22:43 <SuperLag> but I'm sorry, that topic had been closed. :)
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Jun 29 16:23:02 <MCincubus> photomatt, definitely. I'm not saying go back.
Jun 29 16:23:05 <photomatt> SuperLag: we don't gain anything by having 20 committers as opposed to 2, it only adds complications
Jun 29 16:23:22 <skippy> It adds some complications, while removing others.
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Jun 29 16:23:26 <photomatt> two is the smallest possible number with acceptable redundancy
Jun 29 16:23:37 <photomatt> ;)
Jun 29 16:23:40 <Morydd> question: would it be useful to have someone who is not a coder doing purely administrative aspects with the bug tracking... to follow up on progress and such?
Jun 29 16:23:40 <Firas> photomatt, who can change bug status right now? Ryan & You right? I propose bringing on, eg, MCincubus if he agrees to make some executive-type decisions, or at least organize priorities with bugs (this is easy, this can go in)
Jun 29 16:23:55 <photomatt> this may be some bugs with how trac is set up
Jun 29 16:24:01 * BDyret (~BergensDy@235.80-202-119.nextgentel.com) has joined #wordpress-meetup
Jun 29 16:24:07 <SuperLag> photomatt: I guess all I have to compare it to is Gentoo, since I'm one of the ones with commit access. But I only work on a very small piece of the pie. And here the pie is small by design, so what you're saying makes sense.
Jun 29 16:24:10 <photomatt> I think everyone who is logged in should be able to do most things with bugs
Jun 29 16:24:23 <Firas> right, technically :)
Jun 29 16:24:24 <MCincubus> Firas, I've had that access
Jun 29 16:24:30 <geoffrey> gotta run... bye all
Jun 29 16:24:39 <robla> Aforementioned Luis Villa thing: http://tieguy.org/talks/LCA-2005-paper-html/ "Why Everyone Needs A Bugmaster"
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Jun 29 16:25:00 <photomatt> I agree, we need bugmasters
Jun 29 16:25:14 <photomatt> though that's a funny name
Jun 29 16:25:21 * RandyWalker (~randy@ has joined #wordpress-meetup
Jun 29 16:25:25 <photomatt> it doesn't need to be a coder
Jun 29 16:25:27 <skippy> "mechanics"
Jun 29 16:25:29 <SuperLag> pest control! :)
Jun 29 16:25:32 <MCincubus> Code Entymologists
Jun 29 16:25:37 <photomatt> ha!
Jun 29 16:25:38 <relle> mosquito swatters.
Jun 29 16:25:42 <ColdForged> oy
Jun 29 16:25:54 <MCincubus> Entomologists, rather ;-)
Jun 29 16:25:59 <Jalenack> Bugkeeper
Jun 29 16:26:10 <Morydd> I'm willing to offer my services in that regard. I've been looking for a way to help the community more.
Jun 29 16:26:11 <h0bbel> Buglet
Jun 29 16:26:11 <photomatt> any volunteers for this?
Jun 29 16:26:21 <MCincubus> photomatt, you know I'm good for that
Jun 29 16:26:22 <photomatt> Morydd: what's your forum username?
Jun 29 16:26:25 <Morydd> morydd
Jun 29 16:26:30 <photomatt> MCincubus: you too
Jun 29 16:26:33 <MCincubus> markjaquith
Jun 29 16:26:42 <mdawaffe> Morydd: your new motto: "when code gives you bugs, make bugjuice"
Jun 29 16:26:46 <skippy> so ... someone flags a specific bug as "this patch fixes this". I don't think that helps expidite development much.
Jun 29 16:27:03 <Firas> skippy, for example,
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Jun 29 16:27:19 <SuperLag> photomatt: one more quick question. re: aforementioned issues with , I've got an open Gentoo bug, to bump WP to Is a forthcoming, and I should wait?
Jun 29 16:27:20 <Firas> http://trac.wordpress.org/ticket/1469
Jun 29 16:27:23 <MCincubus> skippy, it creates less work for Ryan and Matt, I think. They can just hit up that link and know that the patches have been reviewed by people with PHP experience.
Jun 29 16:27:28 <Firas> this kinda thing should have comments or go in or be closed
Jun 29 16:27:36 <Firas> or this: http://trac.wordpress.org/ticket/1468
Jun 29 16:27:45 <Firas> lots of bugs just 'languishing'
Jun 29 16:27:57 <MCincubus> Firas, even some with tested patches
Jun 29 16:28:02 <Firas> yeah
Jun 29 16:28:14 <skippy> Firas: there. closed.
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Jun 29 16:28:28 <photomatt> okay, skippy, morydd, and markjaquith now have maxium privs on trac
Jun 29 16:28:49 <ColdForged> Huzzah!
Jun 29 16:28:49 <Firas> neat. progress! :)
Jun 29 16:28:56 <ColdForged> All hail!
Jun 29 16:29:01 <Morydd> it's not so much a matter of having the ability to adjust status of bugs, but the responsibility to do so.
Jun 29 16:29:06 <tunicwriter> Now what of Community ideas and the harvesting of such...?
Jun 29 16:29:14 <photomatt> they are hereby crowned bug gardeners, pending a better name ;)
Jun 29 16:29:40 <Morydd> totally adding "Bug Gardener" to my resume.
Jun 29 16:29:45 <ColdForged> "With great power comes great potential for pain and suffering."
Jun 29 16:29:57 <mdawaffe> arise sirs gardeners
Jun 29 16:30:08 * MCincubus revs up Trac and plows it into a brick wall.
Jun 29 16:30:18 <skippy> So ... Morydd ... I'll start at the top of the list, you start at the bottom ... We'll be done by ... next Tuesday...
Jun 29 16:30:23 <ColdForged> If only I knew PHP.
Jun 29 16:30:27 <Morydd> Sweet.
Jun 29 16:30:32 * ryanduff nights skippy, Morydd, and markjaquith
Jun 29 16:30:43 <tunicwriter> Now what of Community ideas and the harvesting of such...?
Jun 29 16:30:46 <Firas> ok next
Jun 29 16:31:02 <Firas> tunicwriter: explain?
Jun 29 16:31:04 <photomatt> there are a ton of bugs, feel free to drop an email with questions
Jun 29 16:31:05 <MCincubus> tunicwriter, bug gardeners should encourage filing of tickets, or doing it on their behalf
Jun 29 16:31:29 * westi resolves to read The Mythical Man-Month again in search of an appropriate name for these bug gardeners
Jun 29 16:31:33 <tunicwriter> MCincubus: that doesn't cover feature requests made here and there that none of the wp-devs notice...
Jun 29 16:31:53 <photomatt> okay next, fundraising and events
Jun 29 16:32:07 <ColdForged> (harvest them and stick them in the codex?)
Jun 29 16:32:14 <MCincubus> tunicwriter, well, if they are put into the bug system, bug gardeners can raise their awareness
Jun 29 16:32:14 <relle> I think tunicwriter's comments need to be addressed first.
Jun 29 16:32:19 <Firas> tunicwriter: they should file requests for enhancements
Jun 29 16:32:29 <relle> We've dealt with bugs, but communcation to the WP Community is critical.
Jun 29 16:32:33 <tunicwriter> But they're not "bugs" if they're new features...
Jun 29 16:32:45 <skippy> trac has an "enhancement" otpion.
Jun 29 16:32:47 <Firas> tunicwriter, no, they are, but relle brings up an importantn point
Jun 29 16:32:48 <mdawaffe> tunicwriter: in trac they're called "tickets"
Jun 29 16:32:55 <skippy> trac is for "tickets" not just "bugs"
Jun 29 16:33:16 <tunicwriter> Okay, then, for instance.. Features requested by people who don't know how to handle fscking Trac...
Jun 29 16:33:28 <photomatt> people have been adding feature requests to Version 1.6
Jun 29 16:33:32 <photomatt> it's actually been really interesting
Jun 29 16:33:36 <relle> on the Codex.
Jun 29 16:33:37 <MCincubus> tunicwriter, I've filed such things on behalf of people
Jun 29 16:33:44 <photomatt> I think that's a fine place for them until the WP wishlist is up
Jun 29 16:33:50 <MCincubus> I ask them "will you submit a ticket?" "too lazy"
Jun 29 16:34:04 <Firas> tunicwriter, I think a lot of the way wp works is the philosophy of, for example, firefox.. you have a platform and then drop on the extensions
Jun 29 16:34:09 <Firas> if some extension gts really popular
Jun 29 16:34:10 <relle> Is there a way to add more frequent updates to the Dev Blog?
Jun 29 16:34:11 <tunicwriter> "Too lazy" generally means "I don't know how but don't wish to say so"
Jun 29 16:34:21 <relle> Status reports.
Jun 29 16:34:30 <ColdForged> Well, maybe a simple(r) interface for a wish list. Simply enter the wish and it's anonymously posted to Trac?
Jun 29 16:34:30 <relle> Right now, it posts like one thing a month or every 20 days or so.
Jun 29 16:34:31 <MCincubus> tunicwriter, yeah, so you can just do it for them
Jun 29 16:34:44 <skippy> Ryan's Commit Summaries would be great devblog items.
Jun 29 16:34:50 * westi adds something to the end of the agenda
Jun 29 16:34:55 <photomatt> let's get one thing being discussed at a time
Jun 29 16:34:56 <skippy> up front, front and center, explainign what has been brewing.
Jun 29 16:35:01 <RandyWalker> relle: we had a reporter or something for a while... it didn't last very long...
Jun 29 16:35:11 <Firas> Ok
Jun 29 16:35:20 <Firas> here are the two items being discussed
Jun 29 16:35:26 <photomatt> are the bug issues clear?
Jun 29 16:35:59 <photomatt> okay, big pause. let's move on from that for now
Jun 29 16:36:04 <photomatt> onto dev blog re: relle
Jun 29 16:36:16 <mdawaffe> perhaps there needs to be both a dev blog and a community blog
Jun 29 16:36:25 <MCincubus> the dev blog is more "community blog" right now
Jun 29 16:36:28 <photomatt> ideas for dev blog:
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Jun 29 16:36:37 <relle> I agree with ONE PLACE.
Jun 29 16:36:38 <photomatt> switch planet to feedwordpress and include more community content
Jun 29 16:36:38 <Firas> ryan's commit log type thing should go there
Jun 29 16:36:51 <relle> That would be a slick place to start.
Jun 29 16:36:55 <relle> Ryan's thing.
Jun 29 16:36:58 <photomatt> dev blog should have more educational content rather than just announcements
Jun 29 16:37:03 <relle> Agreed.
Jun 29 16:37:09 <MCincubus> ++
Jun 29 16:37:11 <Jalenack> ++
Jun 29 16:37:13 <westi> ++++
Jun 29 16:37:14 <mdawaffe> do average users care about 1.6 devel?
Jun 29 16:37:16 <photomatt> I *do not* think anything hyping future versions should be on the dev blog
Jun 29 16:37:21 <masquerade> maybe the dashboard should use an announceblog (or just the announce category of a blog)
Jun 29 16:37:24 <Podz> ++
Jun 29 16:37:25 <photomatt> please, think back to the nightmare we had before 1.5
Jun 29 16:37:26 <Firas> I think we should update the dev blog everytime there's a new transcription of an IRC meetup :)
Jun 29 16:37:27 <ColdForged> ++
Jun 29 16:37:38 <masquerade> and the devblog can really be about the latest developments
Jun 29 16:37:39 <Firas> like such and such was discuseed, check it out here
Jun 29 16:37:40 <photomatt> it was impossible to support everyone on funky nightly versions because they were excited about the new stuff
Jun 29 16:38:05 <relle> Yes, but that was because it was "NEW". If it is talked about ad nauseum, people won't be so fast to jump.
Jun 29 16:38:06 <Podz> all funky versions are definitely not supported in the forums
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Jun 29 16:38:06 <skippy> maybe some folks can flag up good content they see (tutorials like chrisjdavis') that can get dashboard exposure
Jun 29 16:38:24 <photomatt> however codex stuff and lessons is perfect for the dev blog
Jun 29 16:38:31 <relle> Good content, educational, feature Codex articles, Forum topics, chrisjdavis stuff.
Jun 29 16:38:37 <photomatt> relle sent me something a while ago, and it's totally my fault it wasn't posted
Jun 29 16:38:42 <relle> All good that "preps" for 1.6 but doesn't promote.
Jun 29 16:38:45 <skippy> if it's not a blog of development status, then it should be called something other than "devblog"
Jun 29 16:38:58 <Firas> You can just split by category...
Jun 29 16:38:58 <photomatt> skippy: well in the header it now just says "blog"
Jun 29 16:39:11 <photomatt> in the menu I mean
Jun 29 16:39:12 <skippy> summaries of "here's what we're working on, none of which works yet..."
Jun 29 16:39:19 <mdawaffe> photomatt: but the url is confusing
Jun 29 16:39:25 <relle> Leave it as dev blog.
Jun 29 16:39:26 <MCincubus> photomatt, listing "best practices" would be a good use. "This hook is depreciated, here's how you should do it"
Jun 29 16:39:30 <skippy> yes, /development
Jun 29 16:39:38 <photomatt> ryan's stuff shows up on the planet and on the dashboard
Jun 29 16:39:38 <relle> The development of WordPress is also the development of the "users" using WordPress.
Jun 29 16:39:40 <relle> ;-)
Jun 29 16:39:43 <skippy> and the Dashboard announces it as "WordPress Development Blog"
Jun 29 16:39:59 <photomatt> okay, let's forget the name, because we can argue about that FOREVER
Jun 29 16:40:05 <relle> agreed.
Jun 29 16:40:17 <relle> Content and "freshness" of information is more critical.
Jun 29 16:40:21 <Firas> Ok, so we want more pointers to stuff like hot new codex articles on the dev blog
Jun 29 16:40:22 <photomatt> let's just assume we'll go with the worst possible name for everything we do ;)
Jun 29 16:40:26 <MCincubus> Increased posting frequency ++
Jun 29 16:40:28 <photomatt> agreed
Jun 29 16:40:31 <relle> agreed.
Jun 29 16:40:34 <relle> PLEASE.
Jun 29 16:40:36 <MCincubus> 1 or 2 times a week
Jun 29 16:40:41 <photomatt> what if these posts were written on the codex?
Jun 29 16:40:41 <relle> More about Community events.
Jun 29 16:40:44 <relle> And start small.
Jun 29 16:40:45 <photomatt> collaboratively
Jun 29 16:40:46 <relle> Once a week is fine.
Jun 29 16:40:48 <relle> Totally.
Jun 29 16:40:57 <relle> Give it value but having good quality information.
Jun 29 16:41:02 <MCincubus> as long as I can stick it in my feed reader
Jun 29 16:41:06 <photomatt> let's pick a day, say Tuesday
Jun 29 16:41:14 <photomatt> for a WP educational post pointing to the codex, every week
Jun 29 16:41:19 <MCincubus> photomatt, day before meetup?
Jun 29 16:41:26 <photomatt> or thursday
Jun 29 16:41:32 <MCincubus> Thursday sounds better to me
Jun 29 16:41:33 <relle> Thursday might be better.
Jun 29 16:41:39 <relle> Then if something critical comes up.
Jun 29 16:41:52 <relle> We should also include requests for gardeners and volunteers.
Jun 29 16:41:54 <photomatt> okay thursday it is
Jun 29 16:42:01 <relle> Okay, pass info to you, or who?
Jun 29 16:42:03 <MCincubus> people could spend the after-meetup time discussing the next day's post
Jun 29 16:42:17 <photomatt> it's short notice, but could an introductory one be done tomorrow?
Jun 29 16:42:18 <Firas> So it's more about content than pointers?
Jun 29 16:42:20 <Morydd> maybe Tuesday for educational (ie CDJ tutoria) and Thurs for Post-Meetup info?
Jun 29 16:42:29 <relle> Slowly, for now, folks.
Jun 29 16:42:33 <relle> Once a week is plenty.
Jun 29 16:42:39 <photomatt> I would say pointers is better, to keep as much content as possible in the codex
Jun 29 16:42:39 <relle> We're moving up from once a month, remember.
Jun 29 16:42:45 <photomatt> true
Jun 29 16:42:46 <relle> Agreed.
Jun 29 16:43:00 <Firas> Yeah, that's what i'd like too... featured article, bullet list of new things you might want to check out too, that kinda thing
Jun 29 16:43:03 <MCincubus> yeah, maybe just small examples, and then "The codex has much more info [link]"
Jun 29 16:43:13 <relle> We can use the featured articles list for now.
Jun 29 16:43:20 <relle> There is about 6 months worth of those, once a week.
Jun 29 16:43:27 <relle> Connecting the dots.
Jun 29 16:43:29 <westi> maybe a New on the codex this week (top 5) list at the end
Jun 29 16:43:36 <relle> Okay, WHO?
Jun 29 16:43:38 <photomatt> lists are good
Jun 29 16:43:39 <MCincubus> good reason to refresh them too, relle
Jun 29 16:43:46 <MichaelH> person or persons responsible for posting to dev blog?
Jun 29 16:43:48 <photomatt> relle: you're the most prolific writer
Jun 29 16:43:49 <relle> They are changed automatically once a week.
Jun 29 16:43:56 <relle> eeeeek
Jun 29 16:44:02 <Morydd> heh
Jun 29 16:44:05 * relle thinks.
Jun 29 16:44:07 <relle> EEEEEEEK
Jun 29 16:44:08 <photomatt> they can be written collaboratively on the codex
Jun 29 16:44:12 <mdawaffe> someone will have to stop relle from writing a novel each week ;)
Jun 29 16:44:14 <skippy> Can we link to a live working example of the item being showcased, and then say "Read how to do this here" ?
Jun 29 16:44:16 <relle> I can handle Codex stuff.
Jun 29 16:44:25 <relle> That is already done for the next six - eight months.
Jun 29 16:44:29 <relle> Short and sweet features.
Jun 29 16:44:32 <relle> We can pull from there.
Jun 29 16:44:35 <photomatt> okay, perfect
Jun 29 16:44:40 <relle> But who is the coordinator for these?
Jun 29 16:44:49 <relle> I/WE/THEY send them to you?
Jun 29 16:44:50 <Firas> photomatt, what about meetup transcription notes? not the greatest of ideas to point to them them from the dev blog every week? I'm thinking of what mozillazine does
Jun 29 16:44:58 <photomatt> yes, I can post them on thursday
Jun 29 16:45:01 <photomatt> s
Jun 29 16:45:16 <relle> So Wednesday night/Thurs morning deadline.
Jun 29 16:45:25 <photomatt> Yep
Jun 29 16:45:47 <relle> I'll create a page for information on this in my UserPage, so all interested, check User:Lorelle
Jun 29 16:45:50 * relle cringes.
Jun 29 16:45:59 <Firas> * New Page for Fundraising and Events - sign up and ideas
Jun 29 16:46:01 <photomatt> three cheers for relle
Jun 29 16:46:03 <relle> http://codex.wordpress.org/Fundraising_and_Promotions
Jun 29 16:46:06 <relle> shut up.
Jun 29 16:46:08 <Firas> hip hip hooray :)
Jun 29 16:46:10 <westi> cheers
Jun 29 16:46:15 <mdawaffe> hip hip horray
Jun 29 16:46:32 <relle> okay, We started a list for fundraising stuff for WordPress looking for ideas and volunteers.
Jun 29 16:46:35 <relle> Get your asses in there.
Jun 29 16:46:50 <relle> We'll bring proposals to the meeting as this develops.
Jun 29 16:47:02 <photomatt> sounds great
Jun 29 16:47:13 <relle> We've had 42 of those already.
Jun 29 16:47:14 * skippy (~skippy@skippy.net) has left #wordpress-meetup ("Free as in Puppies!")
Jun 29 16:47:15 <relle> ;-)
Jun 29 16:47:19 <mdawaffe> how about a ...
Jun 29 16:47:22 <mdawaffe> oh - never mind
Jun 29 16:47:25 <relle> GO TO THE PAGE!
Jun 29 16:47:47 <relle> 42 requests, that is.
Jun 29 16:47:51 <masquerade> how about a wet [insert your choice of an undergarmet here] contest?
Jun 29 16:48:00 <Firas> Backup Week: July 23-30 News out end of this week!
Jun 29 16:48:01 <westi> Miss Wordpress?
Jun 29 16:48:02 * relle signs
Jun 29 16:48:12 <relle> http://codex.wordpress.org/User:Lorelle/Backup_Week
Jun 29 16:48:20 <relle> Podz and I are getting this going but we need help to promote it.
Jun 29 16:48:22 <relle> Sign up.
Jun 29 16:48:41 <relle> I want to put together a team to handle all the PR stuff we do. So go sign up for both of these.
Jun 29 16:48:44 <relle> Going to be awesome.
Jun 29 16:48:53 <photomatt> I'll be happy to post whatever you come up with to the dev blog
Jun 29 16:48:59 <relle> Podz has gathered info from tons of different admin setups to make this work.
Jun 29 16:49:00 <relle> Great.
Jun 29 16:49:20 <MCincubus> relle, if you want a good reason why backup is important: http://sayanythingblog.com/2005/06/27/powweb-web-hosting-sucks/
Jun 29 16:49:34 <relle> Podz: make a note of that.
Jun 29 16:49:47 <tunicwriter> Oh, but when I say Powweb sucks, no one listens to me.
Jun 29 16:49:50 <relle> Unfortunately, we think the best promotion will be some really big crashes that hit the forum for pleas of help.
Jun 29 16:49:59 <MCincubus> a near-horror story to make people realize the importance of backup
Jun 29 16:50:04 <relle> But information like this is great so add it to the page.
Jun 29 16:50:12 <Firas> yeah, just ask permission, and quote them :)
Jun 29 16:50:14 <relle> We'll use all the examples we can get, including three of my own in the past two weeks.
Jun 29 16:50:17 <Firas> like pr campaigns
Jun 29 16:50:18 * relle sighs.
Jun 29 16:50:23 <relle> Totally.
Jun 29 16:50:31 <relle> So if you want to get involved, it will be great fun.
Jun 29 16:50:37 <relle> Forum plus Codex teaming up.
Jun 29 16:51:17 <relle> next.
Jun 29 16:51:25 <photomatt> "Shit happens."
Jun 29 16:51:37 <Firas> Install WordPress for a Friend - Status?
Jun 29 16:51:38 <relle> EXCELLENT!
Jun 29 16:51:56 <factoryjoe> hey, that idea sounds familiar
Jun 29 16:51:59 <Morydd> what' is it?
Jun 29 16:52:12 <factoryjoe> photomatt: did someone else come up with that too?
Jun 29 16:52:13 <Firas> factoryjoe: to what
Jun 29 16:52:22 <factoryjoe> to an idea i suggested to matt awhile ago
Jun 29 16:52:31 <Firas> it's a carry-over from a two week ago meeting
Jun 29 16:52:34 <factoryjoe> as part of the spreadwordpress campaign he and i discussed
Jun 29 16:52:42 <factoryjoe> oh, i talked to him months ago about that
Jun 29 16:52:43 <photomatt> the idea is a microformat for saying who set up your blog for you
Jun 29 16:52:47 <factoryjoe> ah
Jun 29 16:52:50 <photomatt> I chatted with Tantek about it too
Jun 29 16:52:56 <factoryjoe> similar to the spread creative commons stuff i'm doing
Jun 29 16:52:59 <factoryjoe> good
Jun 29 16:53:01 <photomatt> with a MF it's totally decentralized
Jun 29 16:53:06 <factoryjoe> i need the MF for spreadCC too
Jun 29 16:53:17 <factoryjoe> for derivative works
Jun 29 16:53:20 <photomatt> we had a few good suggestions before, like wordsmith
Jun 29 16:53:26 <factoryjoe> i talked to theryanking about this
Jun 29 16:53:27 <relle> LOVE THAT.
Jun 29 16:53:42 <factoryjoe> basically a genealogy of wordpress installs
Jun 29 16:53:50 <factoryjoe> who referred who referred who
Jun 29 16:53:51 <photomatt> we have a list on the codex somewhere of the suggested terms, right?
Jun 29 16:53:54 <photomatt> factoryjoe: yep
Jun 29 16:53:57 <factoryjoe> cool
Jun 29 16:53:59 <relle> From your user page, photomatt
Jun 29 16:54:05 <Firas> http://codex.wordpress.org/User:Matt/Rel_Ideas
Jun 29 16:54:06 <factoryjoe> speaking of, i have to go have a call w/ creative commons
Jun 29 16:54:07 <factoryjoe> about this
Jun 29 16:54:17 <photomatt> factoryjoe: and weren't you coming over for WP wednesday? :-p
Jun 29 16:54:39 <factoryjoe> i'm here, aren't I?
Jun 29 16:54:39 <photomatt> Firas: thanks
Jun 29 16:54:53 <factoryjoe> hmm, maybe i can stay here and watch during the call
Jun 29 16:54:58 <factoryjoe> which started in t-minus 2 minutes
Jun 29 16:55:02 <factoryjoe> i mean, starts
Jun 29 16:55:05 <factoryjoe> anyway, carry on
Jun 29 16:55:11 <photomatt> my current fav is wordsmith
Jun 29 16:55:19 <relle> CHEERS
Jun 29 16:55:46 <factoryjoe> yeah, wordsmith is alrigh
Jun 29 16:55:47 <factoryjoe> t
Jun 29 16:56:02 <factoryjoe> ligature is a good word
Jun 29 16:56:06 <relle> Can we go with this and move on to making it happen?
Jun 29 16:56:08 <factoryjoe> and connects two letters together
Jun 29 16:56:33 <relle> Or at least setting a date and a plan to promote it?
Jun 29 16:57:01 <relle> We will have to know how it works in order to help explain it on the forums and all.
Jun 29 16:57:06 * ColdForged has quit ()
Jun 29 16:57:26 <Firas> ok, let's put it on the agenda for next week
Jun 29 16:58:14 <Firas> unless photomatt has more to say about it, or someone else..
Jun 29 16:58:16 <Firas> * New page for forum support discussion Support Forum Volunteers
Jun 29 16:58:18 <Firas> * Can we have a mailing list for this project please ?
Jun 29 16:58:23 <Podz> :)
Jun 29 16:58:54 <Firas> Podz, can you kickstart discussion on those bullets? i don't see what it means
Jun 29 16:58:55 <Podz> It's not for asking if we can have phpbb, and it's aimed squarely at people who do already contribute help
Jun 29 16:59:19 <Podz> we have no place to discuss issues and it's a never-ending task
Jun 29 16:59:29 * relle applauds.
Jun 29 16:59:31 <photomatt> okay, and you think it warrants a new mailing list?
Jun 29 16:59:32 <Podz> between us we could spot issues
Jun 29 16:59:34 <Firas> so like wp-support@ ?
Jun 29 16:59:46 <photomatt> it should NOT be called support, becaus then peolpe will try to get support on it
Jun 29 16:59:50 <relle> wp-forumsupport@
Jun 29 16:59:51 <Firas> yeah
Jun 29 16:59:53 <mdawaffe> wp-forums
Jun 29 16:59:55 <Podz> yes - we need a focus. if it dies, so be it but I think I've enough to kick it off
Jun 29 16:59:57 <relle> wp-forums
Jun 29 16:59:59 <photomatt> wp-mavens
Jun 29 17:00:00 <Firas> wp-mavens, or forums, or whatever
Jun 29 17:00:05 <Firas> :) jinx
Jun 29 17:00:22 <photomatt> I'm hesitant to start new lists
Jun 29 17:00:25 <relle> mavens might make it too "exclusive" but wp-forumvolunteers might be generic.
Jun 29 17:00:26 <photomatt> but if you think it's important I'm happy to
Jun 29 17:00:27 <Podz> coders have their list, docs have theirs
Jun 29 17:00:33 <relle> IT IS IMPORTANT.
Jun 29 17:00:37 <Podz> and we *need* more helpers
Jun 29 17:00:38 <h0bbel> ok, fsck me
Jun 29 17:00:45 <h0bbel> oops, wrong #chan sorry. :)
Jun 29 17:00:45 <photomatt> okay, I'll make the list now
Jun 29 17:00:46 <Podz> this may help people who want to help
Jun 29 17:00:54 <relle> He's right.
Jun 29 17:01:03 <relle> People need to know what is going on, and what will be happening.
Jun 29 17:01:10 <relle> It will help them prepare for....stuff.
Jun 29 17:01:15 <Firas> would this be better off as a forum or mailinglist ?
Jun 29 17:01:15 <photomatt> okay, let's start the list
Jun 29 17:01:21 <westi> What is the current way some one becomes a maven?
Jun 29 17:01:26 <Podz> we can bounce the stuff around and reach conclusions between those of us that live there :)
Jun 29 17:01:27 <photomatt> in one month let's review how it's done, if it's useful let's keep it if not let's axe it
Jun 29 17:01:35 <photomatt> westi: the list would be open to anyone
Jun 29 17:01:38 <Podz> okay...
Jun 29 17:01:42 <mdawaffe> (Firas: forum^2)
Jun 29 17:01:42 <relle> It needs at least three months.
Jun 29 17:01:44 <relle> Gees.
Jun 29 17:01:49 <relle> Give it a fair shake.
Jun 29 17:01:53 <photomatt> okay, three months
Jun 29 17:01:56 <relle> It will take time just to spread the word.
Jun 29 17:01:59 <westi> photomatt: i meant more in the context of on the forum not the list
Jun 29 17:02:00 <relle> And it's summer!
Jun 29 17:02:03 <photomatt> Let's just review it's effectiveness after a set period of time
Jun 29 17:02:06 <Firas> Developers
Jun 29 17:02:08 <Firas> * Status of 1.5.2/1.6
Jun 29 17:02:10 <Morydd> if the list is open to anyone, what prevents it from being used by people who are seeking support?
Jun 29 17:02:21 <relle> BRAVO PODZ
Jun 29 17:02:23 <Firas> Morydd: the same that stops them from wp-hakcers or wp-docs
Jun 29 17:02:24 <photomatt> Morydd: we don't call it a support list
Jun 29 17:02:25 <Podz> Morydd:: they will be firmly directed to the forums
Jun 29 17:02:29 <Jalenack> a big "This is not support" banner
Jun 29 17:02:33 <Podz> no support whatsoever
Jun 29 17:02:39 <Morydd> check.
Jun 29 17:02:41 <Podz> at all, to anyone ever
Jun 29 17:03:06 <relle> Only supporting supporters.
Jun 29 17:03:07 <relle> ;-)
Jun 29 17:03:08 <Podz> westi:: that is exactly the sort of thing for discussion
Jun 29 17:03:15 <westi> Podz: ok
Jun 29 17:03:17 <photomatt> I thought supporters might be a good name
Jun 29 17:03:20 <photomatt> but would attract the same thing
Jun 29 17:03:29 <relle> wp-supporters@?
Jun 29 17:03:30 <photomatt> okay, the list will be up as soon as I can log into the list manager doohicky
Jun 29 17:03:31 <Firas> plus you get a place to snicker about xerocool's yet-another-thread and whether to get rid of the bumps in that
Jun 29 17:03:41 <mdawaffe> (pony)
Jun 29 17:04:06 <photomatt> "support mavens" on the forum are people who help out a ton and are suggested by podz to be mods
Jun 29 17:04:12 <masquerade> Firas: so I'm not the only one that notices
Jun 29 17:04:25 <relle> wp-forum or wp-supporters are both good.
Jun 29 17:04:27 <relle> not mavens.
Jun 29 17:04:34 <relle> Keep that for the respect it deserves.
Jun 29 17:04:45 <Firas> masquerade, kaf/podz/&c have been dealing with him for ages, you and i just read his stuff :)
Jun 29 17:05:19 <mdawaffe> NEXT: Status of 1.5.2/1.6
Jun 29 17:05:20 <westi> photomatt: ok
Jun 29 17:05:57 <mdawaffe> As mentioned before, these are cool: http://boren.nu/archives/2005/06/27/wp-commit-digest-for-june-17-27/
Jun 29 17:06:17 <mdawaffe> does anything need to be said about this topic?
Jun 29 17:06:48 <Firas> doubt it, unless it's something about whether/when/how the fix to 1513 will be out
Jun 29 17:06:55 <SuperLag> I'm still curious about what's going to happen with
Jun 29 17:07:33 <MCincubus> actually, I have something I'd like some feedback on
Jun 29 17:07:47 <mdawaffe> I suppose a meta topic about the same thing would be to expand the group of dedicated testers
Jun 29 17:08:35 <MCincubus> Thoughts on preprocessing posts and storing the processed posts in the DB? http://comox.textdrive.com/pipermail/wp-hackers/2005-June/001622.html
Jun 29 17:09:07 <MCincubus> Ryan and michel_v seem to be on board, but no one else chimed in
Jun 29 17:09:46 <masquerade> personally, I think its a great idea, if done correctly
Jun 29 17:09:52 <masquerade> if implemented poorly, it'll go to hell
Jun 29 17:10:45 <mdawaffe> so the data would be there twice? raw in post_content and filtered in post_content_filtered?
Jun 29 17:10:54 <MCincubus> mdawaffe, yes
Jun 29 17:11:03 <mdawaffe> fantastic idea
Jun 29 17:11:42 <MCincubus> the vast majority of filters could be run ahead of time and stored in the DB
Jun 29 17:12:00 <mdawaffe> DB size implications?
Jun 29 17:12:06 <MCincubus> I tried using Textile2 last year, and PHP ran out of memory on month pages
Jun 29 17:12:18 <MCincubus> mdawaffe, would effectively double the side of the posts table
Jun 29 17:12:32 <MCincubus> I think storage space is cheaper than a faster server
Jun 29 17:12:41 <MCincubus> double the SIZE
Jun 29 17:13:03 <mdawaffe> oh I agree
Jun 29 17:13:12 * mdawaffe checks sql tables
Jun 29 17:13:15 <masquerade> I agree, as long as queries aren't pulling out unnecessary stuff twice (pulling out unfiltered or filtered where not needed) we should be good on database efficiency
Jun 29 17:13:43 <masquerade> The cost is size is easily outweighed by server load, especially on shared hosts
Jun 29 17:14:09 <masquerade> The cost of size rather
Jun 29 17:14:16 <MCincubus> yeah... activate textile2 and an acronym plugin and things grind to a stop
Jun 29 17:14:31 <MCincubus> pre-processed, you're back to the speed of a stock WP install, likely.
Jun 29 17:14:40 <masquerade> possibly faster
Jun 29 17:15:08 <MCincubus> and by using "the_content" as the 'live' filter, it's backwards compat
Jun 29 17:15:32 <MCincubus> obviously, you'll want plugin authors to move their hooks to the pre-filtered version, but that can happen gradually.
Jun 29 17:15:48 <photomatt> that's why we added the extra field in the first place
Jun 29 17:15:54 <masquerade> I think breaking post plugins between vversion should be the least of our worries
Jun 29 17:16:11 <photomatt> well the more compatibility the better
Jun 29 17:16:12 <MCincubus> well, it won't be a worry ;-)
Jun 29 17:16:26 <photomatt> most major changes we do don't break old stuff
Jun 29 17:16:35 <photomatt> especially wrt loops and templates
Jun 29 17:16:44 <masquerade> photomatt: of course, but let's not have compatibility at the expense of a feature that could help out a lot
Jun 29 17:17:06 <mdawaffe> would there be an issue with multiple post filtering plugins? one using _filtered the other still using raw?
Jun 29 17:17:22 <MCincubus> mdawaffe, filtered would be passed to the "live" version
Jun 29 17:17:28 <mdawaffe> oh oh
Jun 29 17:17:32 <mdawaffe> right-o
Jun 29 17:17:36 <MCincubus> for Google Hilight etc
Jun 29 17:17:48 <masquerade> ohh, now that's genius
Jun 29 17:18:01 <mdawaffe> then if a plugin wants to be first, it will have to use the filtered hook
Jun 29 17:18:19 <photomatt> yep
Jun 29 17:18:23 * BDyret (~BergensDy@235.80-202-119.nextgentel.com) has left #wordpress-meetup
Jun 29 17:18:29 <mdawaffe> but I suppose that both makes sense and is obvious
Jun 29 17:18:43 <MCincubus> updating can be done on the fly (for old entries) and on update/edit/save
Jun 29 17:18:51 <photomatt> let's discuss that more on the hackers list
Jun 29 17:18:55 <photomatt> to involve more people
Jun 29 17:19:02 <photomatt> I think we all think it's a pretty good idea
Jun 29 17:19:08 <MCincubus> okay cool!
Jun 29 17:19:25 <Firas> Codex
Jun 29 17:19:27 <Firas> * Codex Cleanup Dates: June 18-26, 2005 - status
Jun 29 17:19:29 <Firas> * Special thanks to everyone who helped.
Jun 29 17:19:35 <relle> SUCCESS!!!
Jun 29 17:19:39 <relle> Thanks to everyone.
Jun 29 17:19:47 <photomatt> :)
Jun 29 17:19:53 <mdawaffe> Thank you everyone!
Jun 29 17:19:56 <mdawaffe> everyone++
Jun 29 17:20:06 <Podz> relle++
Jun 29 17:20:08 <MichaelH> Special recognition to Lorelle for managing cleanup process as well as her writing and editing contributions!
Jun 29 17:20:15 <mdawaffe> (codex is awesome and relle rocks the house)
Jun 29 17:20:28 <relle> I just held the broom and dust pan.
Jun 29 17:20:40 <Firas> New Topics
Jun 29 17:20:41 <Firas> * Define purpose of Weekly Meetup: Discussion of the business of WordPress or exclusively for WordPress development issues.
Jun 29 17:20:45 <relle> We had 21 new docs and more on the way.!
Jun 29 17:20:50 <relle> YEAH
Jun 29 17:21:08 <Firas> I don't think that's the most precise summary of the purpose discussion that cropped up the other day :)
Jun 29 17:21:27 <relle> No but it is a summation of the question.
Jun 29 17:21:41 <relle> Developers want their own chat time with Matt.
Jun 29 17:21:54 <relle> Some thing/thought this was it.
Jun 29 17:22:12 <relle> Unfortunately, everyone wants chat time with matt. ;-)
Jun 29 17:22:39 <Morydd> Matt should set up a 900 number. (Can we add that to the fundraisers?)
Jun 29 17:22:44 <tunicwriter> That or they want to meet him in an alley to test their crowbars... or meet him in bed :o
Jun 29 17:23:01 <michel_v> I don't want to meet matt in bed, thanks
Jun 29 17:23:02 <photomatt> well if wordpress wednesdays takes off, I'll be around every wednesday from noon on exclusively for WP dev chat and work
Jun 29 17:23:11 <Firas> The idea was, Owen wanted to discuss the dashboard, and he was told to move on, so it was kinda like gee, we spend so much time talking about tinkering with the codex etc and talking, why not discuss something relevant
Jun 29 17:23:18 <relle> You didn't fully explain WordPress Wednesdays.
Jun 29 17:23:19 <Firas> but yeah, the wordpress wendesday thing sounds grat
Jun 29 17:23:25 <Firas> yeah, what is it?
Jun 29 17:23:27 <tunicwriter> MCincubus: saw it earlier :)
Jun 29 17:23:30 <photomatt> ahem
Jun 29 17:23:56 <photomatt> relle: trying to get bay area geeks over at my house on wednesdays to help out with WP
Jun 29 17:24:08 * relle faints.
Jun 29 17:24:12 <relle> :D
Jun 29 17:24:12 <Jalenack> cool
Jun 29 17:24:14 <MCincubus> photomatt, good call on the JS geeks
Jun 29 17:24:16 <photomatt> enticing them with free food and libations
Jun 29 17:24:30 <tunicwriter> And meeting you in bed?
Jun 29 17:24:33 * Jalenack is in Berkeley
Jun 29 17:24:33 <relle> Don't anyone tell geeksmakeme hot about this.
Jun 29 17:24:37 <relle> She'll move to SF.
Jun 29 17:24:44 <RandyWalker> lol
Jun 29 17:24:52 <tunicwriter> And meet him in bed! :o
Jun 29 17:24:59 <Jalenack> ...
Jun 29 17:25:00 <photomatt> alex russell (dojo/jot) actually volunteered to help out, he's over right now looking at the expandable post area
Jun 29 17:25:00 <relle> This sounds great.
Jun 29 17:25:15 <relle> And you said opening up discussions from noon on....?
Jun 29 17:25:30 <photomatt> not everyone can come every week, but if it becomes a regular thing perhaps different people can drop in at different times
Jun 29 17:25:34 <mdawaffe> someone needs to start a rival WP gang: Austin or LA or something
Jun 29 17:25:46 <factoryjoe> wait, photomatt you're actually having WP wednesdays?
Jun 29 17:25:52 <Jalenack> that'd be fun...
Jun 29 17:25:59 <factoryjoe> in person?
Jun 29 17:26:00 <Morydd> can the rival gangs have elaborate dance/fights
Jun 29 17:26:04 <photomatt> factoryjoe: yeah!
Jun 29 17:26:05 <mdawaffe> Morydd: yes
Jun 29 17:26:09 <factoryjoe> nice
Jun 29 17:26:15 <factoryjoe> you're still coming out w/ us tonight right?
Jun 29 17:26:19 <photomatt> that's what I was trying to say earlier
Jun 29 17:26:24 <factoryjoe> i think alex is coming tonight
Jun 29 17:26:25 <factoryjoe> so... heh nice
Jun 29 17:26:31 <Jalenack> how many people do you think would come to these things?
Jun 29 17:26:36 <factoryjoe> 5,000,000
Jun 29 17:26:41 <michel_v> what about those not in the bay area?
Jun 29 17:26:42 <photomatt> I imagine it would vary a lot
Jun 29 17:26:47 <SuperLag> photomatt: I'm really not trying to beat a dead horse... but one more quick question. re: aforementioned issues with , I've got an open Gentoo bug, to bump WP to Is a forthcoming, and I should wait?
Jun 29 17:26:50 <mdawaffe> how many people outside the bay are going to be put out?
Jun 29 17:27:08 <photomatt> michel_v: well I can't open up my fridge to them, but I was thinking the wp-meetup channel could be used all day
Jun 29 17:27:24 <photomatt> SuperLag: PM me
Jun 29 17:27:30 <michel_v> alright
Jun 29 17:27:49 * westi heads off to bed ... it's getting late
Jun 29 17:27:58 * westi is now known as westi|gone
Jun 29 17:28:00 <Jalenack> what would happen at Wordpress Wednesdays?
Jun 29 17:28:18 <photomatt> like a coding sprint
Jun 29 17:28:31 <Jalenack> everyone crowds around photomatt's computer and watches...?
Jun 29 17:28:34 <Firas> lol
Jun 29 17:28:55 <Jalenack> with popcorn :p
Jun 29 17:28:57 <photomatt> for example I'm going to be in dallas end of july, going to try and get together with ryan to do a coding sprint then too
Jun 29 17:28:58 <michel_v> Jalenack: that would be stupid. everyone chimes in with ideas and stuff gets worked on
Jun 29 17:29:14 <Firas> ok what's next
Jun 29 17:29:16 <relle> he's being silly.
Jun 29 17:29:17 <Jalenack> nice
Jun 29 17:29:25 <Firas> * Development Planning - Should feature requestors be guided to this document?
Jun 29 17:29:38 <robla> http://codex.wordpress.org/Development_Planning
Jun 29 17:29:44 <Morydd> or should they be directed to trac as previously mentioned?
Jun 29 17:29:46 <photomatt> right now feature requests for the next version are going to the bottom of the Version 1.6 page, I think that's fine for now
Jun 29 17:30:05 <relle> I think robla has something more "concrete" in mind.
Jun 29 17:30:33 <Firas> robla?
Jun 29 17:30:35 * tunicwriter is now known as tunic|away
Jun 29 17:30:51 <robla> I'm trying to document how to best request a feature for maximum viability
Jun 29 17:31:13 <robla> exclusion of trac from this doc was an oversight...I plan to address
Jun 29 17:31:41 <photomatt> http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-forums
Jun 29 17:31:50 * alexsmith has quit (Nick collision from services.)
Jun 29 17:31:56 * alexsmith (~hauntedun@HauntedUnix.sourcemage) has joined #wordpress-meetup
Jun 29 17:32:16 <robla> it's a way for non-technical people to contribute...make sure there's a solid spec
Jun 29 17:32:20 <MCincubus> photomatt, real quick... how should tickets with a workable patch be marked? I just assigned it to you and "accepted it." That right?
Jun 29 17:32:45 <photomatt> robla: a few weeks ago we discussed a wp wishlist system that I think will be ideal for that
Jun 29 17:32:54 <photomatt> it's on the todo right after the plugin directory
Jun 29 17:33:06 <photomatt> so that's why I'm saying wiki page for now, and something more structured in the future
Jun 29 17:33:18 <photomatt> it wouldn't make sense to make a complicated process now that will be gone in a few months
Jun 29 17:33:43 <photomatt> MCincubus: why not change the title to put [patch] in it
Jun 29 17:34:06 <MCincubus> works4me
Jun 29 17:34:16 <robla> this isn't about requiring more process. this is giving people who have a ton of energy and enthusiasm about a feature something to do besides whine to wp-hackers
Jun 29 17:35:05 <robla> i'll look at the wishlist system, but I can't believe that you don't want specifications for new features if someone is willing to write them up. Correct?
Jun 29 17:35:51 <photomatt> if people want to write things up like that, their user: page is a good place for that sort of thing
Jun 29 17:36:32 <relle> Pardon me for jumpin in, robla, but photomatt, the development proposal page is a toc of proposals that ARE on user's pages.
Jun 29 17:36:32 <robla> k....how should the proposal be structured on their user page?
Jun 29 17:36:50 <relle> robla and I talked this out as how to best work this on the Codex. That is what we came up with.
Jun 29 17:37:00 <relle> It's a harmless way for people to make proposals.
Jun 29 17:37:08 <photomatt> okay, then that's fine
Jun 29 17:37:28 <relle> Instructions should be available for moving those into more "sophisticated tracking proceedures" if the proposal is accepted.
Jun 29 17:37:34 <relle> It's not a "wish list".
Jun 29 17:37:39 <relle> It's an "I want to do".
Jun 29 17:37:53 <relle> Am I on track, robla?
Jun 29 17:38:00 <robla> relle: yup
Jun 29 17:38:18 <photomatt> the "I want to do" process is usually writing a plugin or filing a patch on the bug tracker
Jun 29 17:38:50 <relle> http://codex.wordpress.org/User:Glutnix/Advanced_User_Permissions_System_Proposal
Jun 29 17:38:52 <relle> example.
Jun 29 17:39:05 <robla> actually, it's a single document describing how to request a feature, as well as a single place to aggregate research into feature areas
Jun 29 17:39:18 <relle> http://codex.wordpress.org/User:RobLa/Access_Control_Development
Jun 29 17:39:19 <relle> another.
Jun 29 17:39:55 <photomatt> okay, that looks good
Jun 29 17:40:15 <Firas> the last issue on the notes is about IRC
Jun 29 17:40:15 <photomatt> for that specific case, the user system is not something that can be overhauled lightly
Jun 29 17:40:49 <photomatt> so that issue will move slowly regardless of whatever process around it
Jun 29 17:40:51 <ryanduff> yay!
Jun 29 17:41:02 <photomatt> that doesn't mean that it's ignored, it just means it's central and hard
Jun 29 17:41:02 <robla> photomatt: understood
Jun 29 17:41:21 <masquerade> meetup still going?
Jun 29 17:41:32 <relle> y
Jun 29 17:41:40 <photomatt> yes but let's start wrapping it up
Jun 29 17:41:41 <ryanduff> masquerade: yup, my topic is still waiting :P
Jun 29 17:41:48 <robla> photomatt: that's why I think it's particularly important for that particular feature to start with specs, etc, and have a more formal process.
Jun 29 17:41:51 <Firas> so masquerade and ryanduff want to talk about irc
Jun 29 17:41:51 <masquerade> ryanduff: oh good, that's the one I didn't want to miss
Jun 29 17:41:56 * cyphase has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
Jun 29 17:41:57 * robla done on that topic
Jun 29 17:42:00 <photomatt> robla: okay, noted, moving on
Jun 29 17:42:25 <relle> IRC
Jun 29 17:43:00 <relle> ryanduff?
Jun 29 17:43:12 <ryanduff> yes
Jun 29 17:43:16 <relle> It's your turn.
Jun 29 17:43:33 <ryanduff> photomatt: i think we should give voice to members on irc (not myself, its not for my gain)
Jun 29 17:43:40 <photomatt> voice?
Jun 29 17:43:46 <photomatt> meaning some people can talk and others can't?
Jun 29 17:43:52 <ryanduff> it shows a + before their name
Jun 29 17:44:00 <ryanduff> like in #gallery
Jun 29 17:44:03 <Morydd> no, you can assign voice without making the channel moderated.
Jun 29 17:44:23 <ryanduff> its an easy way to distinguish
Jun 29 17:44:25 <photomatt> okay
Jun 29 17:44:34 <photomatt> you know freenode has a general policy against that?
Jun 29 17:44:34 <ryanduff> masquerade: did you have anything to say on it
Jun 29 17:44:48 <masquerade> ryanduff: I just wanted to get my bit in and say I concur
Jun 29 17:44:52 <ryanduff> i was not aware of that
Jun 29 17:45:01 <ryanduff> link?
Jun 29 17:45:06 <photomatt> my philosophy is everyone is that introducing hierarchies into the system sucks
Jun 29 17:45:45 <photomatt> especially something like IRC, let's just keep it flat and fair
Jun 29 17:46:11 <h0bbel> photomatt: afaik they have a policy against OP's not Voice
Jun 29 17:46:27 <ryanduff> masquerade: your supporting argument please...
Jun 29 17:46:32 <photomatt> why wouldn't the same reasoning apply to voice?
Jun 29 17:46:44 <photomatt> it's even worse than ops, because it has no functional power
Jun 29 17:46:47 <photomatt> it's just a badge
Jun 29 17:46:55 <h0bbel> it has, if we moderate the channel
Jun 29 17:47:07 <masquerade> From what I saw on the list, and a few occasions in the channel, people wander in and don't want to listen to anyone that they believe do not have authority
Jun 29 17:47:10 <MCincubus> Gotta go grab dinner, catch you all later.
Jun 29 17:47:15 * MCincubus is now known as MCincubus|food
Jun 29 17:47:41 <photomatt> and putting +s in front of people's names will solve the problem of stupid people coming in?
Jun 29 17:47:57 <photomatt> if anything people should link to their forum profile if an issue of "authority" comes up
Jun 29 17:47:59 <photomatt> or your blog
Jun 29 17:48:07 <ryanduff> its not authority
Jun 29 17:48:14 <ryanduff> how many times have i been over this
Jun 29 17:48:15 <masquerade> so, I agree that something like voice could be used to distinguish people on a nominee basis (not by oneself of course) that are known not to give silly advice or blatently wrong advice
Jun 29 17:48:34 <photomatt> if people give blatantly wrong advice they should be asked to leave
Jun 29 17:48:36 <mdawaffe> masquerade: is there anyone on #wordpress that gives silly/wrong advice?
Jun 29 17:48:43 <ryanduff> people who know wordpress, are experienced
Jun 29 17:49:01 <masquerade> mdawaffe: I've seen it happen in the past, and people who wander in from other channels fear it happening because they have not been around
Jun 29 17:49:19 <ryanduff> photomatt: your last statement just goes against everything
Jun 29 17:49:33 <ryanduff> we can't recognize the expreienced users, yet stupid people should be asked to leave
Jun 29 17:49:35 <mdawaffe> masquerade: hm. the info I've gotten has always been sound, but I'm not on it as much as others
Jun 29 17:49:46 <ryanduff> thats certainly a welcoming group
Jun 29 17:49:50 <photomatt> people doing harm to the community should be asked to leave, yes
Jun 29 17:50:07 <ryanduff> but people who do good are still an average joe?
Jun 29 17:50:20 <h0bbel> "We strongly suggest that you avoid configuring your channel to "auto-op". Use the chanserv "op" command to obtain channel operator status only when needed. This will help to keep your channel temperature low."
Jun 29 17:50:23 <h0bbel> thats the policy
Jun 29 17:50:26 <ryanduff> people who give hours out of their day to support the software we all love
Jun 29 17:50:52 <photomatt> are the same as when they go into the channel as ryan or I
Jun 29 17:50:55 <michel_v> masquerade: never distinguish stupid people with +
Jun 29 17:51:23 <masquerade> michel_v: except +b, but we're talking about the opposite
Jun 29 17:51:26 <michel_v> masquerade: it sounds like a nice idea, but in practice people will start asking these people directly
Jun 29 17:51:27 <photomatt> if people are confused by there being no ops or voices, they probably aren't familiar with freenode
Jun 29 17:51:33 <michel_v> if only because they're on top of the user list
Jun 29 17:51:42 <photomatt> that's an issue too
Jun 29 17:51:43 <Morydd> I think in any case, the problem becomes one of deciding what the requirements are for getting +v too.
Jun 29 17:51:47 <mdawaffe> there's plenty of people who put in time on the forums and they don't have any special recognition
Jun 29 17:52:05 <michel_v> photomatt: I think it's freenode that's not familiar with how people expect IRC channels to work
Jun 29 17:52:19 <h0bbel> michel_v: thats not the case in #gallery though, but we did make a #gallery-support channel due to the noise.
Jun 29 17:52:22 <mdawaffe> how is #wordpress different (or how should it be)
Jun 29 17:52:42 <ryanduff> podz is recognized as "support maven" because, well, he does an awesome job in the forums
Jun 29 17:52:50 <photomatt> the position has *always* been if you want support go to the forums
Jun 29 17:52:55 <mdawaffe> Kaf, moshu, macmanx, many others
Jun 29 17:53:00 <photomatt> #wordpress is a chat channel, which you may get help on sometimes
Jun 29 17:53:06 <photomatt> but we've never suggested people go there for that
Jun 29 17:53:07 * h0bbel will not argue this anymore as it's not his place to do so, he's just pointing out how Gallery does it.
Jun 29 17:53:11 <ryanduff> well than pull it out of the codex about instant support and sending people to irc
Jun 29 17:53:21 <ryanduff> because there are tons of support requests in here every day
Jun 29 17:53:31 <photomatt> okay, then let's take the support sentence out of the codex
Jun 29 17:53:40 <ryanduff> send them to the forums and not irc, thats the position isn't it?
Jun 29 17:53:52 <mdawaffe> ryanduff: in the forums it's documented
Jun 29 17:53:59 <masquerade> Shall we redirect every post request to the forums and just ignore them on IRC while we're at it?
Jun 29 17:54:09 <photomatt> if someone gets help on IRC, that's great, but they shouldn't *expect* it
Jun 29 17:54:23 <ryanduff> so what is the purpose of irc
Jun 29 17:54:23 <photomatt> because it just isn't the right medium
Jun 29 17:54:27 <Firas> this conversation isn't on a very helpful track
Jun 29 17:54:39 <ryanduff> right now it's looking like general conversation about whatever
Jun 29 17:54:43 <photomatt> it's a topical channel about wordpress
Jun 29 17:54:45 <ryanduff> since it's not support
Jun 29 17:54:50 <ryanduff> and we have wp-docs
Jun 29 17:55:07 <relle> there was an attempt to have a support only chat and it didn't go.
Jun 29 17:55:13 <ryanduff> a topical chanel thats never usually on topic except when somebody is looking for help
Jun 29 17:55:15 <relle> Lack of publicity and only a couple of helpers.
Jun 29 17:55:25 <relle> #wordpress became support+discussion.
Jun 29 17:55:37 <relle> +social.
Jun 29 17:55:38 <ryanduff> and it can stay that way
Jun 29 17:55:49 <relle> The issue is titles.
Jun 29 17:55:59 <relle> Or putting responsible people on a list.
Jun 29 17:56:01 <relle> Decision?
Jun 29 17:56:08 <ryanduff> whatver
Jun 29 17:56:28 <mdawaffe> perhaps after someone has received help on #wordpress, they should be highly encouraged to document it on the forums or in codex
Jun 29 17:56:42 <mdawaffe> that would attempt to address that issue
Jun 29 17:56:48 * cyphase (~cyphase@adsl-69-224-19-199.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #WordPress-Meetup
Jun 29 17:57:41 <relle> What is the decision about titles and/or documenting responsible folks on the IRC?
Jun 29 17:57:44 <mdawaffe> I can only speak for myself, but when I've gone into #wordpress, I take advice from anyone that gives it
Jun 29 17:58:15 <mdawaffe> I (personally) would not get much use out of a hierarchical IRC structure
Jun 29 17:58:42 <relle> How many do you think would go to, say, the Codex to look at a list of who is who before or during an IRC visit?
Jun 29 17:58:59 <ryanduff> none, thats why it dosn't belong in codex
Jun 29 17:59:00 <mdawaffe> and I've not seen newbies mistrust regulars before, but I bow to masquerade and ryanduff's greater experience on that one
Jun 29 17:59:21 <Morydd> I think the issue is that IRC needs to either be more formal in it's support offerings, or be more obvious in the fact that it is _not_ a support channel
Jun 29 17:59:46 <ryanduff> thank you
Jun 29 18:00:13 <relle> ryanduff, do you want to discuss this in some way on the IRC to get a feeling overall from consistent users and then report to us next week on their feelings and stance on the subject?
Jun 29 18:00:33 <ryanduff> sure
Jun 29 18:00:38 <Morydd> both have issues in that formalizing will kill a lot of the fun, non-support that happens; however, declaring it not a support source will feel like a slight to those who do offer support there.
Jun 29 18:00:46 <ryanduff> can we push it towards the beginning next weeek so i dont' have to wait 2 hours
Jun 29 18:00:49 <mdawaffe> I think that it is _not_ a support channel, but that doesn't mean people won't go there for support. But I don't think any extra degree of formality is needed. Again, the forums have no such hierarchy (except for moderators - but that's something very different)
Jun 29 18:01:06 <relle> You can stick it wherever.....on the list ;-)
Jun 29 18:01:15 <relle> Actually as a past topic, it would go to the top of the list.
Jun 29 18:01:20 <relle> And everyone has to wait their turn.
Jun 29 18:01:26 <relle> No matter where they are on the list.
Jun 29 18:01:30 <Morydd> mdawaffe: the forums have a more formal structure based purely on the format.
Jun 29 18:01:31 <ryanduff> mdawaffe: well if its not a support channel, remove all instances of it from the codex and stop sending people here
Jun 29 18:01:43 <ryanduff> people come here for support because the codex says to
Jun 29 18:01:52 <relle> I think it needs to be a decision by all who participate.
Jun 29 18:02:00 <mdawaffe> Morydd: yes - that was essentially my point
Jun 29 18:02:17 <relle> Firas, anything else?
Jun 29 18:02:18 <ryanduff> delete this page -> http://codex.wordpress.org/WordPress_IRC_Live_Help
Jun 29 18:02:21 <mdawaffe> ryanduff: I was unaware the codex called #wordpress a support channel
Jun 29 18:02:34 <ryanduff> mdawaffe: live help = support
Jun 29 18:02:35 <Firas> relle: no
Jun 29 18:02:36 <relle> It's been listed as a support channel for a very long time.
Jun 29 18:02:40 <photomatt> I was unaware of that too
Jun 29 18:02:42 <relle> photomatt: anything more?
Jun 29 18:02:52 <relle> Before I came around.
Jun 29 18:02:53 <photomatt> that page should be removed
Jun 29 18:02:55 <relle> That's how I found it.
Jun 29 18:03:04 <ryanduff> and i quote "It's like the forums - just quicker. Yes, that is possible!"
Jun 29 18:03:06 <relle> I think the decision should be with the IRC volunteers.
Jun 29 18:03:06 <Morydd> the IRC page will need editing as well.
Jun 29 18:03:09 <mdawaffe> ryanduff: I would tend to agree. that is not incosistent with my statement. I was unaware that page existed, if ou'd prefer
Jun 29 18:03:14 <Morydd> there is also a live chat help on the IRC network irc.freenode.net, where you can seek WordPress related help
Jun 29 18:03:35 <relle> Many people like helping people there.
Jun 29 18:03:39 <relle> So they should all decide.
Jun 29 18:04:15 <ryanduff> so what is it? remove all pages from codex and stop telling people #wordpress is a support channel?
Jun 29 18:04:39 <photomatt> well that page not only promotes it as a support channel, but one that should be used *over* the forums
Jun 29 18:04:40 <relle> I think you need to go to the IRC folks and ask them to help make a decision about it.
Jun 29 18:04:46 <ryanduff> lets leave everything in the forums and let podz deal with it all (no offense to podz) but that seems to be the consensus
Jun 29 18:04:52 <photomatt> We had an IRC page before, but it was just general connection info and such
Jun 29 18:05:02 <photomatt> saying it was "wordpress chat" not a place for support or "live help"
Jun 29 18:05:04 <relle> And when we have information about what people want to do, we make a decision.
Jun 29 18:05:08 <Morydd> http://codex.wordpress.org/IRC
Jun 29 18:05:18 <photomatt> yes, that page
Jun 29 18:05:20 <relle> That page was left over from when Podz started a wordpress support chat.
Jun 29 18:05:23 <Morydd> which also lists the channel as a support source.
Jun 29 18:05:36 <relle> It was cleaned up to reflect it's loss and point to the #wordpress channel.
Jun 29 18:05:42 <relle> It is NOT meant to replace the forums.
Jun 29 18:05:46 <photomatt> okay, so the first paragraph of IRC needs to be edited back to the original
Jun 29 18:05:54 <photomatt> and the live help page should probably be axed
Jun 29 18:05:58 <photomatt> or archived somewhere
Jun 29 18:06:01 <relle> It is meant to be a guide to help people who seek help on the chat.
Jun 29 18:06:06 <photomatt> I think the content is good, it's just saying something we don't want to say
Jun 29 18:06:24 <Podz> I see #wordpress as a fast response to a coding issue that cannot be answered in the forums. or security posts which need evaluating.
Jun 29 18:06:25 <relle> Then we can clean up the content.
Jun 29 18:06:31 <mdawaffe> I guess my stance is that I have no personal problem with questions being answered on IRC, but that I think the forums is the primary source of support for WP and the rest of WP (codex etc) should reflect that
Jun 29 18:06:35 <Podz> and a nice chatty place too :)
Jun 29 18:06:37 <relle> But making such a decision should involve the chat group.
Jun 29 18:06:44 <relle> Not us making the decisions for them.
Jun 29 18:07:05 <photomatt> at its core #wordpress is not the friendliest or most inviting place
Jun 29 18:07:06 <Morydd> yes... because I don't (generally) use the forums.
Jun 29 18:07:07 <mdawaffe> (heck - I've both given and received help on #wordpress before - more like the sort of help Podz refers to)
Jun 29 18:07:11 <relle> They are invaluable as a group and they need our respect.
Jun 29 18:07:18 <photomatt> there are things in the channel we would *never* allow on wordpress.org
Jun 29 18:07:27 <Podz> so will #wordpress be defined clearly ?
Jun 29 18:07:37 <photomatt> we discouraged it before because we had females go in the channel who were essentially harassed and insulted
Jun 29 18:07:59 <photomatt> and offended by male locker room type content
Jun 29 18:08:00 <Firas> huh
Jun 29 18:08:01 <Podz> photomatt:: true - but it's chat, informal though I agree ^^
Jun 29 18:08:24 <photomatt> very prominent females, it almost turned into a PR disaster for WP
Jun 29 18:08:30 <photomatt> I'll leave it at that
Jun 29 18:08:37 <Firas> last year?
Jun 29 18:08:38 <relle> Okay, but it isn't that way now.
Jun 29 18:08:40 <Morydd> it's an informal source of help, but does that automatically make it an inferior form of help.
Jun 29 18:08:48 <relle> Sure it can be cleaned up and the private chats asked to take it outside.
Jun 29 18:08:54 <relle> But it serves an invaluable service.
Jun 29 18:09:16 <relle> I would hate to see us making decisions for them without their input.
Jun 29 18:09:18 <Morydd> and if we're having those kinds of problems, we need people to use the ops and stop it.
Jun 29 18:09:44 <relle> Agreed.
Jun 29 18:09:45 <photomatt> Morydd: if you ban people or kick people out then it becomes a game to them to get back in
Jun 29 18:09:55 <relle> No, but you can ask nicely.
Jun 29 18:09:59 <photomatt> it's *much* better to apply community pressure
Jun 29 18:10:02 <photomatt> relle: exactly
Jun 29 18:10:15 <relle> And the Live Help IRC page was to help regulate and remind people of the purpose(s).
Jun 29 18:10:17 <photomatt> and the beauty is anyone can do that, it doesn't need to be an op
Jun 29 18:10:19 <relle> That's why it was cleaned up.
Jun 29 18:10:35 <photomatt> if there is a genuinely abusive user, then contact one of the freenode admins and they can handle it
Jun 29 18:10:42 <Morydd> No, community pressure is good for dealing with minor problems. When people are actively doing major harm to the commuinty it needs to be dealt with at once.
Jun 29 18:10:55 <Firas> done that couple times (told freenode to k-line people)
Jun 29 18:10:55 <photomatt> but I think more natural social methods are better for regulating the tone of the chat
Jun 29 18:10:56 <Firas> it works
Jun 29 18:11:30 <Firas> on flooders & the like
Jun 29 18:12:02 <Morydd> but the direction this conversation seems to be leading is towards removing all motivation to maintain that respect for the channel. If we're not there for support, why are we there at all?
Jun 29 18:12:05 <relle> Then we will work on the IRC Help document to set a "tone".
Jun 29 18:12:30 <ryanduff> thats what i asked 5 min ago
Jun 29 18:13:11 <ryanduff> why are we here?
Jun 29 18:13:20 <Podz> I thunk #wordpress hits a good balance. Questions get answered, PM's are done, chatter goes on which rarely strays too far and I've certainly seen nothing that someone present took offence too.
Jun 29 18:13:52 <photomatt> it's been over two hours, let's call the meetup officially over, though this discussion can continue
Jun 29 18:14:00 <photomatt> it might be valuable to move it to #wordpress, actually
Jun 29 18:14:12 <relle> thank you.
Jun 29 18:14:21 <photomatt> </meetup>

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