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IRC Meetups/2005/May/May18RawLog

carthik: so what's the agenda for the day?

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masq|lappy: All ready.. but there seems to be not as many people here today

photomatt: the codex seems to be coming up slowly

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splee|coding is now known as splee.

photomatt: who broke the interweb?

carthik: oh yes.

splee: me

splee: sorry

westi: plugs the interweb back in

westi: try now :)

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ryanduff: hi all

masq|lappy: photomatt, its episode III, clogging up all the bandwidth

splee: those damned sith.

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carthik: I could use a few (<5) volunteers for a co-ordinated codex maintenance binge.

mdawaffe: yeah - it's probably wp.org seeding that torrent

photomatt: sorry, let's wait a moment for it to come back up

mdawaffe: carthik, when?

photomatt: I'm poking it now

photomatt: 21:06:44 up 83 days, 1:25, 3 users, load average: 55.43, 37.05, 17.95

Podz: carthik - my hand is up for that

carthik: Podz, great

masq|lappy: photomatt, looks like mysql is a bit busy

Podz: I've lost track of a lot so it'll get me back up to speed for the forums

carthik: I see too many {{Copyedits}} and {{Stubs}}, and {{merges}}

neuro`: Podz: do you own wrc?

Podz: no - that is Shadows

carthik: photomatt, this week - I've been cleaning up the codex for a while now.

carthik: I will bring it up again (the call for vols) at hte end of the meetup

photomatt: well let's start with that, carthik could you talk about what's been done, what needs to be done, and when you want people to help

Podz: I know what happened though - it was not bandwidth as much as server processes. Shadow was told it goes or his domains did

Podz: sorry ..

carthik: Okay, regarding the Codex. We now have a (hopefully) well written set of pages describing how to contribute

carthik: Clickingo n the "community portal" link in the sidebar on all pages will lead a person to a page describing how

carthik: so if anyone asks you (where you == anyone in this room) how to contribute, point them to Community Portal or to Codex:Contributing

carthik: All codex related, "meta" pages now reside in the "Codex:" namespace (so its easier to find the pages)

carthik: Outstanding issues include:

carthik: 1) Removing duplicates, and merging together pages that dont differ from each other by much, and deleting the merged pag

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carthik: 2) Copy editing all outstanding copyedits

carthik: Lorelle's "lessons" project needs some trimming, and love.

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carthik: I find some lessons too long, so they need to be made to-the-point as much as possible

carthik: Now, for the future :

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carthik: I would like to create an "index" page, listing relevant pages in a linear fashion

carthik: Sort of like "The WordPress Book"

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carthik: any comments on this?

carthik: Is this worthwhile?

neuro`: sounds good.

Podz: I have a q!

jonabad: yes, its a good idea

carthik: That should include a standard-style user guide, covering things like "adding a new page" and "adding a new link". Action oriented guide, that is.

Podz: Lessons ..... and such. Can we have pages while they duplicate use language which is aimed more at newbs ?

carthik: So, that folks, is the State-of-the-Codex.

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photomatt: That sounds excellent

relle: Hi, there, I just got back in.

photomatt: To expand it even more

relle: Talking about me.

relle: :-)

relle: Great idea, Carthik. Totally for it.

photomatt: it seems "docs" in the menu at wp.org is confusing people, trying to think of a better name for it

Podz: I am planning some work and it is aimed squarely at newbs, but if people are going to rip it apart and turn in into a geek-fest, then I don't see the point

photomatt: perhaps "how-to" or "guides"

photomatt: Podz: What in particular do you think turns things into geekfests?

carthik: photomatt, maybe that should be replaced with a link to the Codex.

relle: I love how to and guides.

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photomatt: carthik: I think dumping people directly into the codex would be a mistake

Firas|coding: Guides sounds good

Podz: language. use and assumptions - there are a lot

relle: photomatt: opposed to??

westi: photomatt: just Documentation would be better

photomatt: carthik: unless we make the codex look exactly like wordpress.org

carthik: Podz, yes, simple is better, and all Codex docs should be useful for newbies, there should be pages explaining the background information, in a newbie-friendly language.

neuro`: photomatt: people are not used to wiki

carthik: photomatt, why not? The Codex should be the documentation for WordPress, finally.

relle: Hear! Hear!

ringmaster: How difficult would it be to make Codex look like wordpress.org?

Podz: carthik - not quite. I'm thinking specific pages which literally would be an a-b-c

westi: photomatt: after all all of the other links are full words and fulls words are easier for non native speakers to understand

carthik: neuro`, they dont have to know it is a wiki, it is a website with documentation :)

carthik: Podz, all pages should be such, with advanced stuff being marked as such

neuro`: carthik: the browsing feels different anyway

carthik: Podz, what I mean to say is -- if a newbie cant use the page, then it has to be improved with links, details, whatever else

relle: photomatt: could you explain more about what you see the Codex or WP documention looking like in the future?

carthik: neuro`, much unlike other wikis, though, since there is no CamelCase funkiness.

photomatt: I'm open to either making the codex more wp.org like or opening up /docs to an external SVN repository the docs team can commit to

relle: Other than the forums, please define "wp.org-like".

Podz: carthik:: exactly. I don't think they can - or searches are not happening

carthik: photomatt, svn repo- commit, brings me to a docbook project, and hopefully, something like the gentoo-docs, or the svn redbook.

photomatt: relle: meaning it has a menu and background just like wp.org

relle: Oh, just the presentation.

ringmaster: I vote that Codex becomes the official docs, and that it looks more like wp.org.

relle: Hear! Hear!

carthik: photomatt, maybe a subject for later, but I think its about time wp.org got a facelift :)

relle: I am ALWAYS in favor of consistency and "branding".

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photomatt: carthik: that is very much underway

carthik: photomatt, great

relle: give us warning...okay :-)

photomatt: okay, there seems to be a consensus, I'll start exploring integrating WP.org more with the Codex

carthik: for all: http://codex.wordpress.org/IRC_Meetups for details about this meetup, in case you just popped in :)

ringmaster: Does the forum search Codex, too?

photomatt: the most important thing to me for consitency would be having one login for wp.org and the codex

relle: And Podz, I and others have been working overtime to make even the geeky stuff as simple as possible with massive examples and pictures.

Podz: relle:: :)

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relle: Podz :-P

carthik: and while we are at the Codex, still, http://codex.wordpress.org/User:Lorelle/Codex_Categories is Lorelle's effort to classify the pages. With a little love, it could be modded into an index.

photomatt: but anyway, I'll start looking into it

relle: Needs work, but it is based on the Textpattern TOC.

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relle: I seriously vote for restructuring, as carthik mentioned.

relle: Creating a "book" feel will go a long way towards helping the user through the process.

carthik: photomatt, it would be nice if you could read, and follow up a little on this bug I filed: http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2174

photomatt: 1.5.2 is coming out very shortly, I just want to check with mdawaffe and ryan about the url_to_postid changes and if those have stablized

carthik: photomatt, especially "Looks like you have $wgCapitalLinks = false set in LocalSettings." which is think is untrue.

Podz: what is shortly ? :)

mdawaffe: They're looking good ot me

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mdawaffe: Let me take a glance again

photomatt: carthik: we do have that set to false

carthik: photomatt, :) alright - we live with what we have, then lol

photomatt: mdawaffe: if so, then I'll start running some final tests and begin packaging it

relle: Timelline for 1.5.2?

photomatt: relle: this week

relle: And by the way, I really liked how the testers and docs groups got notes warning us of the upcoming changes. That really helped a lot of the volunteers prepare and handle the flow of traffic to the forum and Codex, etc.

relle: We need to make that a habit.

carthik: hey, michel_v_ :) Hope you got here on time today

michel_v_: yeah :p

relle: The better prepared the volunteers are, the better we can handle the "surprises".

relle: Podz: congrats to you and Kaf and everyone for jumping in with both feet on the forum. Kudos!

carthik: masq|lappy, jonabad, are you logging this too ?

masq|lappy: carthik, got it all taken care of

carthik: thanks, masq|lappy

jonabad: is secretly logging away

carthik: Alright, so shall we then move on, now that we know that 1.5.2 will be out sometime this week?

carthik: relle, maybe you want to tell us about http://wrc.os42.com/ ?

photomatt: yep, that's next on the agenda

relle: I was handing out links to the site for the cool Theme viewer and it went bork. Note on site renames it "WorddPress Resources Centre" and says no more viewer.

mdawaffe: phottomatt: There's been some complaints about 2612 re trackbacks http://mosquito.wordpress.org/view.php?id=1324#bugnotes (away down there at the bottom). url_to_postid looks fine though

relle: First, is there a way to get the viewer back up and running?

Podz: Host said "Lose wrc or we remove your domain" to shadow

photomatt: well if shadow can contact me I'll fix him up

Podz: it was the only site that had all themes too - not sure if AK is keeping up?

photomatt: we have plenty of hosting resources, there's no reason anyone should have trouble hosting WP resources

westi: relle: i've offered hosting for the theme viewer if required

Podz: photomatt:: I'll pass that on

relle: It was wonderful!

relle: Was it the downloading or viewing or switcher?

photomatt: and that goes for anyone, if bandwidth/CPU is becoming a problem for your WP stuff, please let me know

Firas: photomatt: that's a great general notice, should help some folks

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relle: Second, the use of the name "WordPress Resource Centre"...sounds very official. I worry about the use of the name and trademarks and rights and all that legal stuff.

twistedraisin: woy

photomatt: when I talk to shadow we can discuss all that

photomatt: *that

carthik: cool.

photomatt: http://wordpress.org/extend/ is coming along very slowly

ringmaster: I was just about to ask that.

carthik: was referring to the hosting offer.

mdawaffe: Very very soon = very slowly? :)

photomatt: unfortunately!

jonabad: raises hand

jonabad: what is /extend?

photomatt: the first step is modifying ringmaster's download script so it works of a local copy and not over HTTP (ouch)

mdawaffe: what's all in the works?

ringmaster: Have you figured out how to get the local copy? Are you cacheing?

photomatt: ringmaster: svn co

ringmaster: On each hit or once every so often?

photomatt: mdawaffe: a directory of plugins and themes keyed off the repositories

ringmaster: (I've been making changes to that code that might be helpful.)

photomatt: ringmaster: I can attach an `svn up` as a post commit action on the repositories

mdawaffe: automagic install and everything?

ringmaster: Sweet.

photomatt: no automagic install *for now*, but certainly something to look at for the future, hopefully building on what drdave has done

mdawaffe: gotcha

photomatt: ringmaster: would you be up for sharing some of that new code?

ringmaster: Hey, I gace you the old stuff...  ;)

photomatt: it also needs to fall back to trunk if there's no tags

relle: So bringing over the list from the Codex and putting it at /extends?

ringmaster: s/gace/gave

photomatt: relle: it's less of a list, more of a directory with a separate page for each plugin/theme and downloads coming off wordpress.org

relle: Okay.

relle: Great.

photomatt: I hope it'll be cool :)

Firas: ooh building on drdave's automagic install would be killer

Firas: i don't think ANY system out there does it

carthik: I was thinking of figuring out a way to make both wp-themes and wp-plugins.org community maintained projects

photomatt: Firas: the only reason we haven't so far is it has significant security implications (not necessarily problems) and scares a lot of people

photomatt: carthik: how so?

carthik: I figure it will be useful to have a way for people to add others' plugins and themes.

carthik: The way I figure - some maintainers or whatever-you-call-thems can add themes, plugins to the repos.

photomatt: carthik: I think that's going to be essential for themes

photomatt: because none of the theme authors can figure out SVN

ringmaster: The main issue I have with drdave's thing is that it requires unzip and runs exec(). It would not work on my IIS site.  :(

carthik: and later, if the "owner" shows up, the owner could be given privileges to update the repository copy

photomatt: ringmaster: cross-platform issues are also very important

photomatt: ringmaster: exec is not really an option

Podz: incomplete / unfinished stuff will be added. That sort of thing already gets reported in the forums

carthik: photomatt, yes. The other day, I figured out tags/branches for myself, finally.

photomatt: Podz: incomplete/unfinished stuff where?

carthik: photomatt, it would be nice to have a service where people who dont want to deal with svn can submit their plugins/themes and maintainers could upload them to the repository for them.

ringmaster: I've also used Yahoo to search for plugins that include terms in their readme.txt. Very sweet.

photomatt: carthik: I agree

photomatt: we seem to be having a lot of good ideas this session, it'd be great if someone could summarize them at the end

splee: carthik: is there any simple documentation for svn that explains tags and branches?

carthik: photomatt, whenever you are ready with a working system, you can issue a call for maintainers.

photomatt: list them out

ringmaster: Allowing common folk to grab files from /trunk is not often the most desirable thing.

Podz: photomatt:: person finds theme on a blog. reports in forums, when you go to see you find they meant it for mates or such, say it's not finshed etc. The question of support is then also raised. Theme support in the forums in not a good thing

carthik: splee, if you just want to know, pm me, I read parts of the svn book, and got some help from folks at #wordpress the other day

photomatt: Podz: maintainers of the repository could do basic quality checks before adding things in

westi: splee: i would recomment reading the book sections of tags/branches

mdawaffe: carthik - sounds like a Codex article :) (I'm one to talk :-P)

photomatt: ringmaster: for many plugins /trunk is the latest stable version

photomatt: much like the WP repository is right now

carthik: mdawaffe, well, that could be an article at the wp-plugins.org wiki instead, too :)

ringmaster: photomatt: And that's a big problem in plugin devs understanding of how svn is supposed to work.

mdawaffe: touche

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carthik: ringmaster, I would think of these as teething problems. A little guidance and help from the "maintainers" will iron out these issues, in the long run.

photomatt: the purist in me wants to say "only use tags for everything"

jonabad: i second! i started reading the book and still don't understand how to properly use svn properly

carthik: Like, not everyone knows how to add a .deb to the debian packages, for example...

photomatt: but then I realize that's not how a lot of people develop

ringmaster: carthik: I agree.

photomatt: carthik: good analogy

ringmaster: photomatt: Then perhaps we need to have a way for devs to tell the /extend how they develop so that the untested stuff is hidden, and the tested trunks are available.

westi: photomatt: tags are for releases.. trunk is for work in progress

Firas: I don't think it's that much of an issue

ringmaster: Something in the readme.txt file?

photomatt: westi: I know that

carthik: Even an open source project could use some management :)

photomatt: ringmaster: I think the existence of tags is a good proxy for that

Firas: just tell em to tag!

photomatt: if there are no tags, use the trunk, if there are tags, use a tag

relle: Podz: I don't want your comment to get lost here. The idea of having a "forum" discussion area separate from the main support for Plugins and Themes would be great. It's tough to not be familiar with more than 4000 Themes...:-)

ringmaster: Me too. And I agree with carthik: we must teach them how to tag.

photomatt: for many of my plugins though it would be wasteful to tag, because there's not really enough going on and they're hardly ever updated

westi: we should have a way of maintaining history without it being public... that is one thing that would make me not check stuff into wp-plugin.org svn until i was happy with it and run a separate svn locally for developer checkins to get atomicity of changes

westi: maybe the wp-plugins.org svn shouldn't be browseable

Firas: westi: i don't think may people look at trunk code, maybe you're beeing too shy?

westi: but just tagged download available

westi: Firas: :P

westi: Firas: I want to be able to checkin stuff i know breaks the code so as to keep track though

ringmaster: Ok, tags if ya got em, trunk if not. Seems reasonable to me. But no trunk if you have tags. At least not readily available.

relle: I don't know how it's done, but the way Mozilla handles their extensions, especially the categorized pages and listings, that would be slick for plugins and themes. Their downloading process is sure sweet.

photomatt: ringmaster: yep

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carthik: westi, why's that so? A developer could easily ensure that the latest tag is usable. And then you have the trunk, and branches, for things in progress. just an alternative for your consideration

westi: ringmaster: sounds good to me

Firas: relle: they got an advantage coz they're on local machines, we have to install on remote ones

westi: carthik: yes but if the latest trunk is many months newer than the last tag... many users will use that instead

ringmaster: relle: Go to redalt.com/External/plugins.php to see my prior work.

westi: and also if one plugin has only trunk and no tags people will get used to using trunk and always go there

westi: even for stuff with defined releases

photomatt: westi: I think you're worrying too much about it

carthik: westi, one has to assume some intelligence on the part of the developers :)

photomatt: let's start with something simple, we can always build up later

westi: imho too many of the current plugins _only_ have trunk

mdawaffe: (carthik - the problem is assuming too much intelligence on the part of the users :))

relle: ringmaster: looks great, just needs categories to sort through. Very cool.

carthik: photomatt, but please consider the idea of others uploading/maintaining plugins... :)

ringmaster: That's what /extend will be when it's done, categorized and described.

carthik: mdawaffe, yep :)

Firas: and tagged

relle: cheers

photomatt: :)

Firas: what's next?

relle: Just think of me as one of the "not too much intelligence" users ;-)

photomatt: I think that's pretty much it for this week, if someone could list out the ideas that came up that'd be great so we can reference them later

photomatt: list out on the wiki that is

carthik: One sec : Are we safe in assuming all plugins are gpl-compatible ?

Podz: Maybe hosts who are listed on wp.org could give detailed feedback about removal of any wp site ?

relle: We still need more volunteers on the Codex to put this all into play!!!!!

relle: Sign up!

Firas: photomatt: i checked about theme licenses

relle: Get involved!

Firas: FSF: "If the program dynamically links plug-ins, and they make function calls to each other and share data structures, we believe they form a single program, which must be treated as an extension of both the main program and the plug-ins."

Firas: i think themes are very deeply entrenched in wp code

Firas: so they have to be GPL compatible as descirbed

carthik: Folks, I could use about 5 volunteers to clean up the codex -- maintenance tasks. It should be completed by a week, I should think.

Firas: ie they make function calls and share data strutures

relle: I'll be there for the weekend, Carthik. Per usual.

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carthik: Yes, so if anyone's interested in maintenance, please sign up at http://codex.wordpress.org/Codex:Tasks#Maintenance_Tasks

mdawaffe: carthik - seems i've faded into the sunset. I don't think I'll be able to commit much time for awhile

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carthik: mdawaffe, no sweat

relle: Firas and photomatt: we need to add the GPL info to the Codex to make sure that the info is up to date.

relle: Don't fade too far, Michael, we need you.

carthik: Firas, there's the "interpreted languages" loophole though

Firas: carthik:

Firas: hmm

carthik: the reason I asked about the license of plugins is cause I want to improve, and update LivePress, but unteins, the original author is not too active anymore

mdawaffe: relle: (didn't realize it was you! how are you?) This term is busy, summer should be better.

relle: Good.

photomatt: I don't think we should put any themes or plugins on the site if the author doesn't want them there

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photomatt: even if they are GPL by default

photomatt: that'd just piss people off, and discourage them from working on top of WP

carthik: true

photomatt: which is the last thing we want

photomatt: the massive exposure from being on wp.org should be enough incentive for most people

carthik: but I;d hate to spam plugin authors asking them to commit to the repository

Firas: carthik: email him and ask for a handover?

Firas: or send him patches

relle: Oh, and photomatt, any decision or deadline on the logo?

carthik: Firas, thats the next logical step, yes.

masq|lappy: Alright, so, now that that last bit of chatter has worn down, anyone want to make a quick summary about what was discussed?

carthik: masq|lappy, someone can parse the log

carthik: :)

jonabad: volunteer for the evening log

photomatt: w/r/t the logo

photomatt: this is the final shape: http://photomatt.net/temp/wp_logo_4.02.gif

relle: Good.

relle: Like it.

photomatt: colors and such are forthcoming with a site design

masq|lappy: jonabad, if you want to get it, go for it, even put it in my userspace with the other logs if you'd like

relle: Good potential

carthik: WordPress - the love machine

carthik: (VW van, anyone?) lol

relle: Get that thing protected!

ringmaster: Now lets see how many magazine covers we can get it on.

relle: The new Herbie movie is coming out this summer. Perfect timing.

photomatt: ringmaster: I like the way you think :)

relle: photomatt: when will it become public?

Firas: ringmaster: heh

photomatt: relle: when the site is redesigned

relle: Dates???

relle: Just thinking and planning ahead.

photomatt: something should launch in july

ringmaster: relle rocks because she's the only one who seems to be able to get photomatt to say anything that sounds like a date.

relle: YEAH!

photomatt: heh ;)

relle: Let us know how we can all help with the launch - throw confetti and all.

photomatt: the actual design hasn't really started yet, once I have something to show I'll start soliciting feedback here in the meetups

relle: Great. Do you have a PR team of volunteers set up at all?

relle: Coordinated promotion and advertising stuff?

carthik: No rounded corners, or pastels please, photomatt -- even site and it's daughter seem to be doing that already :)

carthik: just kidding

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carthik: So are we there, yet?

photomatt: carthik: well drop shadows and patterns are so 2004 ;)

Podz: Maybe hosts who are listed on wp.org could give detailed feedback about removal of any wp site ?

photomatt: relle: no PR team

relle: Waiting on info on PR team?

relle: Get one.

carthik: photomatt, yeah :)

relle: I volunteer first.

photomatt: Podz: referring to dreamhost? I already emailed them about that thread

Podz: cool - it's the 4th site I know of in 2 weeks

photomatt: if any host continues to be WP unfriendly, they'll be removed

photomatt: Podz: could you send me the links for the rest?

Podz: I'll try and find - 2 weren't reported here, they were in other forums

ringmaster: Grr. XML Parsing Error on wp.org hosting page?

ringmaster: Nevermind. Stupid ad filter.

photomatt: ringmaster; huh?

photomatt: haha

photomatt: Podz: any info I have helps me make a better case to them

Podz: true .... it was some goth site I ended up in though :) I'll dig in the history

relle: Oh, one last whine: any updates to the changelog for 1.5.2? Please post on Codex so we can get that ready... thanks!

ringmaster: Is there a way to automate Trac changelog->Codex posting on each tag? That would be swell.

photomatt: Podz: unfortunately I've found before sometimes people complain about their host being bad and when you dig in you find out they didn't pay or their CC failed or something

Podz: that could be the case for the other two, but shadow was on DH before, and another site was killed by DH which is in the forums

mdawaffe: PS: I'm glad you're calling it 1.5.2 Gmail always thinks is an IP

carthik: Later, folks. Gotta go.

mdawaffe: later carthik

relle: Adios, carthik.

relle: Hand out assignments, later, okay!

relle: :-)

ringmaster: Yeah, getting late. Wife on warpath. Owen sneaking past her into house.

carthik: nah!

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photomatt: I think we are calling it

mdawaffe: oh - photomatt - 1.5.2 is coming out very shortly, I just want to check with mdawaffe and ryan about the url_to_postid changes and if those have stablized

mdawaffe: I'll take it as a typo :)

photomatt: sorry I misspoke

relle: So which is it?

jonabad: you're playing with us yes?

mdawaffe: no worries - now whenever I email anybody about it it will be appropriately emphasized

mdawaffe: as a link :)

relle: So that's it?

Firas: yup

ringmaster: Later all.

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relle: masq|lappy: be sure and emphasis the kudos and heros welcome for all who helped with the 1.5.1 release in the forums and Codex. I saw some names on the forum constantly, without sleep. So joy to them.

relle: In your notes.

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relle: And I see photomatt in the #wordpress so I guess we are done.

photomatt: thanks everyone for coming out :)

photomatt: see you all next week or sooner

relle: Let's have a cleaner ending in the future, okay.

jonabad: how anticlimactic

photomatt: BOOM

relle: much better. Thank you.

photomatt: ;)

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