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IRC Meetups/2005/November/November02RawLog

[4:59 ] <photomac> howdy
[4:59 ] <gsnedders> hi
[5:00 ] <coffee2code> heya
[5:00 ] =-= morganiq_working is now known as morganiq
[5:02 ] <photomac> so I'm here (with skeltoac) at the blogging enterprise conference
[5:02 ] -->| wpTony (n=Tony@unaffiliated/wptony) has joined #wordpress-meetup
[5:02 ] <photomac> the internet is a little funky
[5:03 ] <photomac> but it looks like there are two main issues on the agenda
[5:03 ] <masquerade> bug hunt is the major one
[5:03 ] <photomac> yep, this weekend!
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[5:04 ] <photomac> I think a summary with stats afterward is a great idea
[5:04 ] <photomac> I'd like a blog post on the dev blog beforehand
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[5:05 ] <morganiq> is this bug hunt weekend intended for 1.6? 1.5.2? individual projects?
[5:05 ] <photomac> skippy, your post seemed solid, would you be up for adapting it for the dev blog?
[5:05 ] <photomac> morganiq, 1.6
[5:05 ] <morganiq> k, thanks
[5:05 ] <skippy> photomac: sure; "adapt" in what way?
[5:05 ] <photomac> so we can get all the honker bugs out of the way and start doing beta/test releases
[5:06 ] <photomac> skippy, I don't have anything in mind, it looks fine to me
[5:06 ] <photomac> maybe answering the question that was just asked
[5:06 ] <skippy> feel free to copy-n-paste!
[5:06 ] <skippy> throw in a link to XAMPP and the Codex page.
[5:06 ] * skippy goes off to update his post....
[5:06 ] <photomac> okay, will do
[5:07 ] <photomac> do we have a page on the codex for developer resources?
[5:07 ] <westi|coding> skippy: you could link to the Mac OS X instructions as well as the XAMPP ones
[5:07 ] <skippy> westi|coding: link?
[5:07 ] <photomac> info on xampp, SVN, proper bug etiquitte, etc
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[5:07 ] * westi|coding checks his post from earlier for the link
[5:08 ] <skippy> we need a snapshot tarball of SVN, so people don't need to muck with it to participate
[5:08 ] <westi|coding> skippy: http://maczealots.com/tutorials/wordpress/ (found on the codex somewhere)
[5:08 ] <skippy> As I said, I'll assemble and host that
[5:08 ] <masquerade> photomac, I did add the link to the WordPress_Coding_Standards on the codex page, that might be a good thing to link too
[5:08 ] <photomac> is that one of the pages that's duped from wp.org/docs?
[5:08 ] <skippy> let's consolidate links on the Codex page, and then have the devblog point to that
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[5:08 ] <masquerade> photomac, I believe so
[5:08 ] <photomac> k
[5:09 ] * westi|coding adds to the agenda
[5:09 ] =-= westi|coding is now known as westi
[5:10 ] <photomac> okay, any other TODOs for the bug day?
[5:10 ] <skippy> I'll try my best to record who does what
[5:10 ] <coffee2code> should the docs note issues with WP and mysql 4.1 (namely regarding authentication)? (current docs say "MySQL version 3.23.23 or greater")
[5:11 ] <masquerade> photomac, are we going to have a couple people that will put all the patches into one big patch at the end of the weekend?
[5:11 ] <photomac> no, hopefully it'll be iterative throughout the day
[5:11 ] <rboren> Separate patches attached to each bug.
[5:11 ] <photomac> the goal isn't necessarily the most code committed, but we really need to bring trac under control
[5:12 ] <masquerade> coffee2code, what? there's no problems with auth on any version of mySQL
[5:12 ] <skippy> my goal is to close as many bugs as possible.
[5:12 ] <photomac> there are hundreds (thousands?) of bugs that we need to either close or schedule
[5:12 ] <coffee2code> search forum for "mysql 4.1"
[5:12 ] <photomac> coffee2code: that's really a host config issue
[5:12 ] <masquerade> coffee2code, those aren't auth problems, its a config issue
[5:12 ] <coffee2code> ah, ok
[5:12 ] <masquerade> if you compile the extension properly, you won't have any trouble
[5:13 ] <skippy> quick show of hands: who plans to participate on Saturday ?
[5:13 ] <masquerade> skippy, I'll be one of the two days for sure
[5:13 ] <masquerade> if not both
[5:13 ] <westi> i will try to but have a very busy day and an engagement party to go to
[5:13 ] <photomac> I'll be partly on Saturday and all day Sunday
[5:14 ] <rboren> Same here.
[5:14 ] * wpTony will wherever he can - not exactly an expert with php/sql, etc
[5:14 ] <skeltoac> I'll be around most of that time.
[5:14 ] <photomac> basically if I'm not on a plane I'll be there
[5:14 ] * morganiq raises hand
[5:14 ] <gsnedders> I will if I'm well enough and awake enough, as I have chronic fatigue syndrome
[5:14 ] <skippy> great! Should be fun.
[5:14 ] <ringmaster> Oh, me too!
[5:14 ] <photomac> that sounds like a great turnout already
[5:15 ] <photomac> we should have an IRC channel for it
[5:15 ] <skippy> wpTony: no experience necessary -- we need people to say "Yes, that fixes it" and "nope, still broken"
[5:15 ] <morganiq> is there going to be an IRC channel set up for the bug hunt?
[5:15 ] <skippy> #wordpress-bugs
[5:15 ] <photomac> sounds good to me
[5:15 ] <morganiq> woo
[5:15 ] <skippy> for the weekend, I don't think we need to register it; if this is on-going, we should.
[5:15 ] <photomac> k
[5:16 ] <photomac> okay, sounds like we're well set
[5:16 ] <wpTony> skippy: sounds good :-)
[5:16 ] <photomac> I just need to steal content from skippy and we're ready
[5:17 ] <skippy> http://www.skippy.net/blog/2005/11/01/wordpress-bug-hunt-2005-11-05/
[5:17 ] <skippy> http://wordpress.org/support/topic/48447
[5:18 ] <skippy> http://codex.wordpress.org/WordPress_Bug_Hunts
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[5:18 ] <skippy> that does it for me. next?
[5:18 ] <photomac> PHP4 vs. PHP5 classes
[5:18 ] <photomac> masquerade: want to share that issue?
[5:19 ] <masquerade> Basically, what's everyone's thoughts on PHP4 vs PHP5 classes, as if you run WP in PHP5 with E_STRICT on, you'll see errors everywhere, mostly since var is deprecated
[5:19 ] <masquerade> obviously we have to support PHP4 for a few years to come, but PHP5 is catching on pretty fast, 5.1 is out now I believe
[5:20 ] <photomac> in a class like wp-db.php we do things like say "var $queries;"
[5:20 ] <skippy> is that just declaring "this is a variable" ?
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[5:20 ] <skeltoac> Does anyone run a production site with E_STRICT?
[5:20 ] <skeltoac> These are E_NOTICEs, right?
[5:20 ] <masquerade> skippy, yes, but in PHP5, they've moved to better OOP support, and there are now public, private, and protected variables
[5:21 ] <ringmaster> I think this is really the purpose of E_STRICT, similar to what XHTML Transitional is to XHTML Strict. What is the uptake on turning on E_STRICT?
[5:21 ] <masquerade> skeltoac, no, they're E_STRICTs
[5:21 ] <skeltoac> Sorry.
[5:21 ] <masquerade> ringmaster, its not as much the errors now as the fact that at some point, support will be dropped completely for the old syntax
[5:21 ] <skeltoac> I don't think it's an issue unless people are running out of disk space because they're logging the errors ;-)
[5:21 ] <photomac> what happens if we just take out those lines?
[5:22 ] <masquerade> photomac, you have a broken class
[5:22 ] <skippy> A possibly related question, which might help clarify this one: at what point will WordPress stop supporting MySQL 3.x ?
[5:22 ] <ringmaster> Or is there a keyword that can replace var that works in 4 & 5?
[5:22 ] <photomac> masquerade: we use undeclared variables and it seems to work
[5:22 ] <gsnedders> why is it deprecated?
[5:22 ] <photomac> is that a fluke? should we just define them like $this->variable = ;?
[5:23 ] <masquerade> photomac, at the cost of an E_STRICT I believe, using undeclared class var is bad
[5:23 ] <photomac> gsnedders: who knows
[5:24 ] <masquerade> using undefined regular vars is one thing, but classes are different by design, and you probably should be using a keyword
[5:24 ] <morganiq> do undeclared class variables default to public, private, or protected?
[5:24 ] <masquerade> morganiq, public IIRC
[5:25 ] <morganiq> k, well that should not result in any lost functionality then
[5:25 ] <ringmaster> Can you declare a class member as "public $varname;" in PHP 4?
[5:25 ] <masquerade> I don't remember, can someone with PHP4 try it out?
[5:25 ] <gsnedders> sure
[5:25 ] <morganiq> I seem to remember having actually done that before, and it working, but I could be wrong
[5:26 ] <masquerade> using uninitialized variables goes against the whole code is poetry thing, its just an ugly fix
[5:26 ] <ringmaster> If that's the case, then we could just change all the "var"s to "public"s and move on, right?
[5:26 ] <masquerade> ringmaster, indeed
[5:26 ] <photomac> if it works
[5:26 ] <ringmaster> Right.
[5:26 ] <masquerade> I'm pretty sure you can use public on functions in PHP4, not sure about variables
[5:26 ] <gsnedders> Parse error: parse error, unexpected T_STRING, expecting T_OLD_FUNCTION or T_FUNCTION or T_VAR or '}' in /Library/WebServer/Documents/tets.php on line 5
[5:26 ] <gsnedders> nope, it doesn't work.
[5:27 ] <ringmaster> So much for that idea.
[5:27 ] <skeltoac> Not forward compatible :)
[5:27 ] <gsnedders> i was typing out my test so quick I called the file tets.php :)
[5:28 ] <masquerade> if everyone thinks that we can leave it alone for now, then its no problem, but its something to be aware of
[5:28 ] <skeltoac> masquerade: I thought "deprecation" was used as an interim step before "unsupported." I consider it's safe to leave it alone.
[5:29 ] <morganiq> well, we could always surround the declarations with an if (phpversion()) check
[5:29 ] <photomac> I think we should leave it for now, but like you said keep it in mind
[5:29 ] <gsnedders> skeltoac: the problem is under E_STRICT it prints notices sating it is.
[5:29 ] <masquerade> morganiq, you can't
[5:29 ] <morganiq> can't? why not?
[5:29 ] <skeltoac> gsnedders: E_STRICT is unsupported then :)
[5:29 ] <masquerade> morganiq, classes can't house code, just variable and method declarations
[5:29 ] <morganiq> ah, gotcha
[5:29 ] <morganiq> makes sense
[5:30 ] <skeltoac> morganiq: You'd have to surround the class definition in an if statement, or provide a different classes.php for each PHP version.
[5:30 ] <morganiq> yeah
[5:31 ] <morganiq> which would be a little overkill, I think
[5:31 ] <skeltoac> We might have to do that when people are spread between PHP 4, 5, and 6.
[5:31 ] <skeltoac> Or just tell them to use Strayhorn if they can't upgrade their PHP :)
[5:31 ] <morganiq> well, I think we should abandon 4 by the time 6 rolls around ;-)
[5:32 ] <skeltoac> That's years in the future. Any other issues?
[5:32 ] <photomac> that's assuming new versions are better than old ones
[5:32 ] <skeltoac> Heh, true.
[5:32 ] <photomac> *cough* perl 6
[5:32 ] <morganiq> haha
[5:32 ] <masquerade> hey, we'll have unicode by PHP6 :-P
[5:33 ] * skeltoac recalls using "u" as a pcre flag by accident, causing a train wreck
[5:33 ] <photomac> final topic! codex spam
[5:34 ] <photomac> could we do something like an akismet plugin for mediawiki?
[5:34 ] <skippy> doubtful.
[5:34 ] <photomac> that's assuming the spam is mostly automated
[5:34 ] <westi> photomac: can you see the IP(s) in use by this spammer? Any patterns?
[5:35 ] <masquerade> photomac, wouldn't stop spam, especially when its things like images
[5:35 ] <photomac> I haven't investigated it
[5:35 ] <skippy> We could violate the principles of a wiki, and require some sort of manual account creation process for would-be contributors. ick
[5:35 ] <photomac> skippy, I'd prefer not to do that
[5:35 ] <wpTony> that would take a lot of manhours
[5:35 ] <masquerade> not that that many people contribute anyways, but I have a feeling the number of newcomers contributing would drop
[5:35 ] <photomac> we're plugging in akismet to things like wordpress.com account creation and post creation
[5:35 ] <westi> if we went to 1.5 we can reduce the privs of new users more u think
[5:35 ] <skippy> as would I -- just throwing it out there as an option of last resort.
[5:35 ] <skeltoac> I like the akismet idea. Use the added text/code as the_content.
[5:36 ] <skeltoac> Anything that fails goes to moderation.
[5:36 ] <photomac> I could create a custom interface for that
[5:36 ] <photomac> the problem is the wiki doesn't have a concept of spam or moderation
[5:36 ] <skippy> westi: is 1.5 stable yet?
[5:36 ] <skeltoac> Somebody just needs to mark diffs as spam and moderate the positives.
[5:36 ] <stevecoo1ey> would this get released back to mediawiki?
[5:36 ] <photomac> before people get excited about 1.5, I have been UNABLE to upgrade at all
[5:37 ] <westi> skippy: not sure ... just saw that it had more user level stuff
[5:37 ] <photomac> I'd love for htat
[5:37 ] <skippy> 1.5.1 is the current stable release
[5:37 ] <wpTony> skippy: ... you mean 1.5.2?
[5:38 ] <skippy> wpTony: MediaWiki 1.5.1
[5:38 ] <masquerade> wpTony, he's not talking about WP, pay attention
[5:38 ] <photomac> wpTony: mediawiki, not WP
[5:38 ] * wpTony shrinks back in his seat: 'oh...'
[5:39 ] <westi> just removing Move permission from non-sysops would be nice as moves are the hardest to clear up
[5:39 ] <westi> one undo (for Page+Talk) and two deletes
[5:40 ] <gsnedders> gtg
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[5:40 ] <photomac> we haven't had the best luck with extending mediawiki in the past, mostly getting people to work on it
[5:40 ] =-= wpTony is now known as wpTony|food
[5:41 ] <skippy> are there any existing MW plugins for any of this?
[5:41 ] <--| ringmaster has left #wordpress-meetup
[5:41 ] <masquerade> skippy, I think westi was saying that most of that is in 1.5
[5:42 ] <westi> i think i read earlier that non-logined in users have no move ability in the MW we use
[5:43 ] <photomac> we require login for everything
[5:43 ] <photomac> the vandalism seems to be from logged in and registered users
[5:44 ] <photomac> anyway I don't have a set answer
[5:45 ] <photomac> does anyone follow mediawiki development?
[5:45 ] <skippy> not I
[5:45 ] <westi> nope
[5:49 ] <photomac> *crickets*
[5:51 ] <stevecoo1ey> not like I follow WP
[5:51 ] =-= wpTony|food is now known as wpTony
[5:52 ] <photomac> okay well let's table that for now
[5:53 ] <photomac> any last issues before we end the meetup?
[5:54 ] <skippy> looks like we're done.
[5:54 ] <morganiq> none here
[5:54 ] <wpTony> none here
[5:57 ] <skippy> </meetup>

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