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IRC Meetups/2006/February/February22RawLog

[19:05] <photomatt> howdy
[19:06] <photomatt> let me gather everything together
[19:07] <photomatt> alright, let's get started
[19:07] <photomatt> "Review of WordPress Responsibilities"
[19:07] <photomatt> proposed by SteveAgl
[19:08] <photomatt> is steve here?
[19:09] <PotterSys> no, he's not online
[19:09] <photomatt> okay, well would anyone else like to ask any questions about that topic?
[19:09] <photomatt> the list has filled out nicely
[19:09] <photomatt> basically it's just a matter now of contacting the people involved and getting them started
[19:11] * Joins: lightdifference
[19:12] <photomatt> okay, moving on
[19:12] <MichaelH> Tentative release dates for 2.0.2 and 2.1
[19:12] <photomatt> "Tentative release dates for 2.0.2 and 2.1"
[19:12] <photomatt> there is no date planned for either currently
[19:12] <rboren> The future. :-)
[19:13] <MichaelH> may or december summer or fall?
[19:13] <photomatt> right now focus is being given to website stuff, like wp.org and the codex, and plugins
[19:13] * Joins: Usayd
[19:13] <photomatt> 2.0.2 is "standing by", so if something comes up that requires a release it can be done in short order
[19:13] <photomatt> that's why the 2.0 branch is being updated
[19:13] <photomatt> 2.1 is going to ruffle some feathers
[19:13] <ringmaster> Where is the 2.0 stuff in svn?
[19:13] * Joins: mikelittle
[19:14] <photomatt> http://svn.automattic.com/wordpress/branches/2.0/
[19:14] <rboren> And...
[19:14] <rboren> http://trac.wordpress.org/milestone/2.0.2
[19:15] <photomatt> I didn't make that milestone, so I don't know
[19:15] <rboren> I did to track the fixes I put in.
[19:15] <ringmaster> So the branch is being updated directly. Ok. Just looking for the definitive svn swtich url.
[19:15] <rboren> The selected date for the milestone was arbitraty
[19:16] <rboren> arbitrary
[19:16] <photomatt> okay
[19:16] <photomatt> sounds fine to me
[19:16] <photomatt> MichaelH, is that satisfactory?
[19:16] <MichaelH> okay. just interested.
[19:17] <MichaelH> 2.1 seems it will affect mucho docs.
[19:17] <photomatt> in what way?
[19:18] <MichaelH> see MichaelH/Codex_Changes_for_2.1
[19:18] <MichaelH> http://codex.wordpress.org/User:MichaelH/Codex_Changes_for_2.1
[19:19] <photomatt> ah
[19:19] <photomatt> nice list
[19:19] <photomatt> so you're tracking the changes and noting pages as we go along?
[19:19] <MichaelH> just trying to keep up...
[19:19] * Joins: skeltoac_bbq
[19:19] * Joins: Podz
[19:20] <rboren> Need to audit all docs for SELECT statements and do what we can to eliminate the need for then.
[19:20] <MichaelH> rboren: explain...
[19:20] <rboren> Most of those examples should use API, not SELECTs.
[19:20] <photomatt> we shouldn't advocate direct SQL in the doc
[19:20] <rboren> Hide the DB, don't expose it.
[19:21] <photomatt> in most cases
[19:21] <rboren> Only when API is lacking...
[19:21] <rboren> And where it is we should try to make it not lacking.
[19:21] <photomatt> yep
[19:22] <rboren> Many of those example should die.
[19:22] <MichaelH> okay I replace SELECT with API P
[19:22] <photomatt> rboren, could you update everyone on the status of blicki?
[19:22] <Usayd> hey guys theres a bug i submitted a while back and its not been fixed in 2.0.1 (http://trac.wordpress.org/ticket/1659), just wondering if someone could take a look before the next release
[19:22] <rboren> blicki made me a milkshake today.
[19:23] <rboren> Fabulous plugin.
[19:23] <rboren> It has the basics right now.
[19:23] <stevecooley> rboren: you want to do this so that... you can cut down on support questions about why the DB is the way it is?
[19:23] <photomatt> Usayd, now's not really the time
[19:23] <rboren> Revisioning...
[19:23] <rboren> MediaWiki style diffs between revisions...
[19:24] <rboren> Rollback to past revisions...
[19:24] <rboren> Wiki-style page links [[My Page]]
[19:24] <rboren> If page doesn't exist the link takes you to the editor.
[19:24] <stevecooley> oh, sorry, I'm a little delayed, nevermind
[19:25] <rboren> Themes can add page create links to 404 templates.
[19:25] <rboren> You can choose who can edit pages.
[19:25] <rboren> Anyone/Registered User/Authors...
[19:25] <rboren> Anyone still needs work.
[19:25] * Joins: mahangu
[19:26] <rboren> You've got diff links off the permalink.
[19:26] <rboren> History links are coming.
[19:26] <rboren> As well as support for custom history and diff templates for themes.
[19:26] <rboren> is_history(), is_diff().
[19:27] <photomatt> sounds fancy
[19:27] <rboren> IPs and authors are stored with each rev.
[19:27] <photomatt> why does this matter to wp.org?
[19:27] <rboren> No IP blocking yet.
[19:27] * Quits: stevecooley
[19:27] <rboren> Why does is_history and is_diff matter?
[19:27] <photomatt> (suggestion: run posts through akismet)
[19:28] <photomatt> no I mean, if we were going to test it out, what still needs to be done?
[19:28] <skeltoac_bbq> Frappuccinos.
[19:28] * mumbles2nd is now known as mumbles
[19:29] <PotterSys> skeltoac_bbq: indeed
[19:29] <rboren> If we import from MediaWiki, we'll need full markup support unless we import the XHTML.
[19:29] <rboren> And right now the only Wiki markup blicki does is links.
[19:29] <rboren> There are lots of Wiki markup plugins that can be coopted if desired.
[19:30] <MichaelH> {{templates}} will be fun ;)
[19:30] <rboren> Although I can live without most Wiki markup. But that's me.
[19:31] <rboren> Add we'll probably need things like Recent Changes, etc.
[19:31] <MichaelH> Talk pages?
[19:31] <MichaelH> User Pages?
[19:31] <rboren> Well, we have the commenting system for talk.
[19:32] <skeltoac_bbq> Talk is non-linear.
[19:32] <rboren> True.
[19:32] <rboren> .../page/talk/
[19:32] <rboren> Done.
[19:32] <mahangu> photomatt, I was away at the last meetup (exams), so I'm moving an issue I tabled for that to this meetup, if we have the time - http://codex.wordpress.org/IRC_Meetups#Topics
[19:32] <rboren> :-)
[19:32] <skeltoac_bbq> User pages should be doable with a meta cap.
[19:33] <MichaelH> __TOC__ ?
[19:33] <photomatt> {templates} can be replaced by a simple include system
[19:34] <rboren> How much Wiki syntax do we want?
[19:34] <mumbles> have i missed much ?
[19:34] * mumbles reads logs
[19:35] <MichaelH> syntax not as important as functionality.
[19:35] <photomatt> wiki syntax vs. wysiwyg?
[19:35] <rboren> Supporting Wiki syntax in the WYSIWYG will be fun.
[19:35] <rboren> :-)
[19:36] <skeltoac_bbq> It'll be fun all right.
[19:36] * skeltoac_bbq grumbles
[19:36] <mahangu> yeah fun for masochists :)
[19:36] <skeltoac_bbq> ;-)
[19:36] * ringmaster looks fine, and then his head explodes.
[19:36] <mahangu> i think we should give owen the task of writing that up, he seems to enjoy such tasks
[19:36] <mahangu> :o
[19:36] <rboren> We are importing a large number of MediaWiki pages. Do we support all of that Wiki markup?
[19:36] <ringmaster> mahangu: Uh. No.
[19:36] * lightdifference is now known as lightdi|lunch
[19:37] <photomatt> I think MichaelH's point is good that there is some key functionality, but we don't need to recreate their syntax
[19:37] <rboren> So the importer gets to translate.
[19:37] <rboren> The importer is going to be more work than blicki itself.
[19:37] <rboren> blicki is simple.
[19:38] <skeltoac_bbq> So modest.
[19:39] <rboren> It's an affectation.
[19:39] * Joins: mumbles2nd
[19:40] <photomatt> fortunately everything is in PHP
[19:40] <photomatt> so we could pull in mediawiki classes as needed
[19:40] <rboren> Yes, it's PHP and GPL.
[19:40] <rboren> I already stole the diff engine.
[19:40] <photomatt> rboren, how about speed? is blicki faster or slower than regular WP?
[19:40] <photomatt> one problem with the codex is it's slow as molasses
[19:40] <rboren> Haven't done benchmarks, but subjectively it is the same.
[19:41] <rboren> There just isn't much to blicki right now.
[19:41] <rboren> The content filter only does one thing right now. [[Page Link]]
[19:41] <rboren> And, of course, I don't have hundreds of pages yet.
[19:42] <rboren> I've tried to improve page lookup performance, but nothing major yet.
[19:42] <rboren> get_page_by_path() does the main looking up.
[19:43] <rboren> Walks the path from leaf to base.
[19:43] <photomatt> okay
[19:43] <photomatt> so the importer would be good sooner rather than later
[19:43] <photomatt> we might identify problems in core WP as well
[19:43] <rboren> Walks the parents looking for a page that matches all path elements.
[19:43] <rboren> blicki requires trunk right now.
[19:43] <rboren> It inspired lots of core changes.
[19:44] * Quits: Usayd ("Yo man I can't stick around here forever!"�)
[19:44] <rboren> The post_type work is essential to blicki.
[19:44] <rboren> As is the page/post cap split.
[19:45] <rboren> And the dynamic menu reparenting.
[19:45] <rboren> That was a fun patch.
[19:46] <rboren> http://trac.wordpress.org/changeset/3536
[19:47] <rboren> Will wordpress.org/support be a separate WP install, or shared with the rest of wp.org?
[19:48] <rboren> I'd worry about cookies if everything is run off one instance.
[19:48] <photomatt> you mean codex?
[19:49] <rboren> Ooops. Yes, codex.
[19:49] <rboren> Not support.
[19:49] <photomatt> they can be separate instances, but ideally it would use the user DB of /support
[19:49] <rboren> Sure.
[19:49] <photomatt> cookies on wordpress.org are global
[19:49] <rboren> Just don't want my cookie to give away the keys to everything.
[19:50] <rboren> Will we filter all codex pages through kses?
[19:50] <rboren> I suppose so.
[19:50] <photomatt> why not?
[19:51] <skeltoac_bbq> A hybrid of kses and x-valid would kick butt.
[19:51] <PotterSys> but, what is kses?
[19:52] <skeltoac_bbq> KSES Strips Evil Scripts
[19:52] <rboren> blicki doesn't promote the unfiltered_html cap.
[19:52] <rboren> Just wondering about the import.
[19:52] <rboren> Anyway, that's a tangent. kses it is.
[19:52] <rboren> blicki gives people page edit perms depending on the accessibility settings, but unfiltered_html does not come with it.
[19:52] <photomatt> okay
[19:53] <photomatt> maybe we could create a new role for people who need higher level access
[19:53] <photomatt> but we can cross that road when we come to it
[19:53] <photomatt> when can we import the codex and test things out/
[19:53] <rboren> If someone has a proper WP Editor role, they'll have unfiltered_html.
[19:53] <rboren> So, Wiki maintainers/mods would be full Editors.
[19:54] <PotterSys> skeltoac_bbq: oh, thanks :)
[19:54] <rboren> Everyone else would just be Subscribers that blicki gives page edit/publish privs to.
[19:54] <rboren> They won't have delete privs though.
[19:54] <rboren> At least not in the current version.
[19:55] <rboren> So, we need to decide what markup functionality we want (regardless of the syntax we end up dressing it in).
[19:56] <photomatt> MichaelH, what do you think is most important?
[19:56] <rboren> Make a list of MediaWiki markup bits we would like to have. Like TOC.
[19:56] <MichaelH> rboren: will start that soon.
[19:57] <rboren> Do we want to grab one of the Wiki markup plugins like dokuwiki?
[19:57] <ringmaster> Make note of the 64k limit on IE textareas.
[19:57] <rboren> Or just keep a stripped down set of custom markup and use XHTML for most stuff.
[19:58] <rboren> Some of those markup plugins are huge.
[19:58] <MichaelH> photomatt: will try to address "most important" in my list.
[19:59] * Quits: mumbles (Connection timed out�)
[20:00] * Joins: pandem
[20:01] <rboren> What else? Want to talk about Secure Admin?
[20:02] <pandem> sorry, I think i am an hour late
[20:03] <pandem> i will wait for the log
[20:03] * Parts: pandem
[20:03] <photomatt> rboren, go for it on secure admin
[20:04] <rboren> So, picture the admin UI.
[20:04] <rboren> Now picture it with https.
[20:04] <rboren> That's my marketing pitch. Like it?
[20:04] <ringmaster> Free WordPress comes with an SSL cert? Cool!
[20:05] <rboren> Enable secure admin and all admin ops are done over SSL.
[20:05] <rboren> The auth cookies are delivered over SSL.
[20:05] <rboren> A separate loggedin cookie is used for the front-end.
[20:05] <rboren> For edit post links and comment form username fill.
[20:06] <rboren> The loggedin cookie just has a userid, no auth info.
[20:06] <rboren> Anything that modifies the DB requires the full auth cookie delivered over SSL.
[20:07] <rboren> http://dev.wp-plugins.org/browser/secure-admin/trunk/
[20:07] <rboren> Currently requires WP trunk but it will work with 2.0.1 with a little tweaking.
[20:07] <rboren> I'll add back compat later.
[20:08] <photomatt> very cool
[20:08] <photomatt> especially with all the conferences coming up
[20:08] <photomatt> and coffee houses on the rise
[20:08] <ringmaster> Does that plugin work right now?
[20:09] <rboren> Yes.
[20:09] <rboren> With the very latest trunk.
[20:09] * ringmaster clicks a download link...
[20:09] <rboren> It will be 2.0.1 compat soon.
[20:10] <rboren> You'll need to setup SSL for your server, of course.
[20:10] <rboren> If you enable the plugin and get stuck due to improper SSL server setup, just remove the plugin to go back to non-SSL operation.
[20:12] <rboren> Logout and back in once the plugin is enabled to make your auth cookies SSL only.
[20:12] <rboren> Otherwise you'll have the old cookies that are setup for insecure delivery.
[20:12] <rboren> Thus defeating the point. :-)
[20:12] <ringmaster> Hmm. This obviates using the SSH tunnel through the home system when at the local cafe.
[20:12] <photomatt> at least for blogging
[20:12] <photomatt> we're going to enable it by default on WP.com too
[20:12] <rboren> Comment posting might need some love.
[20:13] * ringmaster is pleased.
[20:13] <rboren> It currently require posting comments over SSL.
[20:13] <rboren> In case the user is logged in.
[20:13] <rboren> Might want to make that smarter. Require SSL only when commenting as a logged in user.
[20:14] * Joins: mumbles
[20:17] <photomatt> groovy :)
[20:18] <photomatt> anything else to cover in the meetup?
[20:18] <MichaelH> Codex--what happened to Special:Popularpages?
[20:18] <Podz> forums - someone going to work on those ? The breakages are starting to be commented on more
[20:20] <MichaelH> what Podz said ++
[20:21] <photomatt> MichaelH, I have no idea what's wrong with that page, it may have been deactivated for performance reasons
[20:21] <photomatt> Podz, you were going to compile a list of todos for the forums?
[20:22] <Podz> I did - did you get the email  ? I have a link to the page if you want ?
[20:22] <MichaelH> photomatt: as I thought. too bad it was useful but I know blicki will have a high performance version ;)
[20:23] <rboren> Hah!
[20:23] <rboren> We can do BOTD for pages.
[20:23] <photomatt> Podz, I may have missed that, a link would be helpful
[20:23] <rboren> That way I can pass the buck to skeltoac. :-)
[20:23] <Podz> http://www.tamba2.org.uk/wordpress/page9.html
[20:25] * Quits: skeltoac_bbq (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)�)
[20:25] <rboren> Too bad we can't kidnap mdawaffe and make him fix everything.
[20:27] <MichaelH> not being able to page through your history and the no-replies is absolute killer.
[20:27] <photomatt> okay I'll look at those first
[20:27] <photomatt> thanks for putting that together Podz
[20:27] <Podz> np
[20:30] * lightdi|lunch is now known as lightdifference
[20:30] * Podz is now known as Podz|afk
[20:30] <photomatt> alright, without any further ado
[20:30] <photomatt> let's wrap it up
[20:31] <ringmaster> Oooh... one more small item?
[20:31] <photomatt> thanks everyone for participating
[20:31] <photomatt> ringmaster, go for it
[20:31] <ringmaster> Regarding Inline Dev Docs, (don't put up the shields just yet!) I have a thing to show... http://redalt.com/fn/get_links_list
[20:31] <ringmaster> The script generates this every 12 hours based on the trunk.
[20:31] <photomatt> "you are not logged in or do not have permission to edit this"
[20:31] * Quits: mumbles2nd (Connection timed out�)
[20:32] <rboren> I can see it.
[20:32] <photomatt> it's when I click anywhere
[20:32] <ringmaster> I guess you're not logged in.  :)
[20:32] * Quits: mahangu ("Leaving"�)
[20:32] <ringmaster> When you ARE logged in, you can do this: http://owenw.com/fn.avi
[20:33] <photomatt> that looks very very cool
[20:33] <ringmaster> http://redalt.com/fn/ houses an Ajax search page, although all of the functions are available on the plain URL.
[20:33] <photomatt> historically, web services on redalt have been proprietary
[20:34] <photomatt> do you plan to keep it that way or is this meant to be a community resource?
[20:34] <ringmaster> The community is welcome to it.
[20:34] <ringmaster> If folks want to help me populate it, that would be very cool, too.
[20:35] <photomatt> so it's like a wiki for code documentation, very cool
[20:35] <photomatt> do you want it to be an official WP thing?
[20:36] <ringmaster> As of right now, I'm still working on it. There are a couple of things I want to fix, and maybe a couple of things I'd like to integrate more tightly with WP.org.
[20:37] <photomatt> okay well let me know
[20:37] <ringmaster> One of my major goals is to have it generate diffs for integrating PHPDoc. So essentially, people who want that stuff in their working code can download the diff and patch it, and it'll be fresh every 12 hours.
[20:37] <photomatt> I'd be happy to create an account for it on wordpress.net
[20:37] <ringmaster> Cool. I'll keep that in mind.
[20:39] <ringmaster> I guess that's all for now.  :)
[20:40] <photomatt> okay, well it looks very cool thus far
[20:40] <ringmaster> Thanks.
[20:42] <photomatt> alrighty
[20:42] <photomatt> </meetup>

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