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IRC Meetups/2006/May/May31RawLog

[17:04] * Joins: ringmaster
[17:04] <skeltoac> hey ringo
[17:04] <photomatt> now the band is complete
[17:04] <photomatt> let's kick it off
[17:04] <photomatt> <meetup>
[17:05] <photomatt> let's get started with the branch so nice we had to release it thrice
[17:05] <photomatt> 2.0.3
[17:05] <photomatt> http://wordpress.org/beta/wordpress-2.0.3-beta.zip
[17:05] <photomatt> is the official beta
[17:05] <mumbles> damm update already ?
[17:06] <photomatt> the department of wordland security has certified this release
[17:06] * skeltoac snickers
[17:06] <PotterSys> photomatt: "WordPress.org is taking a lunch break."
[17:06] <skeltoac> old dns records still hiding somewhere
[17:06] <photomatt> 2.0.3 + duct tape and saran wrap and you're safe from anything
[17:06] <photomatt> PotterSys: you have bad DNS
[17:07] <photomatt> has anyone tried 2.0.3 out?
[17:07] <rboren> I have.
[17:08] <rboren> But that's a given.
[17:08] <rboren> Anyone else?
[17:08] <photomatt> I'm running the latest 2.1 bits on my blog
[17:09] <rboren> Me too. I've got 2.0.3 test blogs going though.
[17:09] <skeltoac> I'm also a trunkmonkey.
[17:09] <ringmaster> That's... disturbing.
[17:09] <skeltoac> (heh)
[17:09] <photomatt> a lot of the patches were similar for 2.1 and 2.0.3
[17:10] <rboren> Are we comfortable with nonces? That's in 2.0.3.
[17:10] <rboren> They're working well for me.
[17:10] <photomatt> I can't break anything by clicking around
[17:11] <mumbles> ill get a test blog up soon
[17:11] <ringmaster> Will comment approval emails be two-click in 2.0.3 like in 2.1?
[17:11] <rboren> Two click including the click in the emails?
[17:11] <rboren> Yes.
[17:12] <ringmaster> Blast this improved security!
[17:12] <rboren> Curses.
[17:12] <rboren> We got dinged for that a lot though.
[17:12] <Podz> PotterSys - PM with the solution
[17:12] <photomatt> yeah I think the two-click email thing sucks
[17:13] * ringmaster wants a tray app that approves WP comments.
[17:13] <rboren> The CSRF police loved to point that one out.
[17:13] <photomatt> let's not have that in 2.1
[17:13] <photomatt> maybe we can note in the code that it's an intended tradeoff
[17:13] <photomatt> much like our not collecting fingerprints or social security numbers
[17:14] <skeltoac> woe is us.
[17:14] * ringmaster feels a plugin coming on.
[17:14] <skeltoac> What are some happy things in 2.0.3?
[17:14] <skeltoac> More hooks?
[17:15] <rboren> More API.
[17:15] <rboren> I think there's an extra hook or two.
[17:15] <gsnedders> sending an Etag doesn't mean it will never send 304
[17:16] <photomatt> okay
[17:16] <photomatt> well now that all the coding is done, and rboren is no longer down with an injury, a release will probably be coming pretty soon
[17:17] <photomatt> for people who like to know about that ahead of time
[17:17] <rboren> Everybody test.
[17:18] <photomatt> or the blog terrists will get you
[17:18] <ringmaster> Are we going to get a 2.1 alpha bump with this 2.0.3 beta or release?
[17:18] * gsnedders screams for my mummy!
[17:19] <photomatt> ringmaster: perfect transition point!
[17:19] <photomatt> let's talk about 2.1, bay-bee, let's talk about you and me
[17:19] <photomatt> or just 2.1
[17:19] * skeltoac shrugs
[17:19] <photomatt> I don't know that there is really a whole bunch holding up 2.1 at this point
[17:20] <photomatt> faster pages page and users page would definitely be Nice to Have
[17:20] <ringmaster> No shuttle for 2.1? No caps remix?
[17:20] * Joins: io_error
[17:20] * Joins: stevecooley
[17:20] <rboren> Plugin updater would be nice.
[17:21] <photomatt> it generally takes a month and a half after we stop adding features for a release to come out
[17:21] <rboren> Since we're going to break so many of them.
[17:21] <ringmaster> Heh.
[17:26] <photomatt> ahem!
[17:26] * miklb always wondered what these meetups were really about
[17:26] <photomatt> well first question
[17:26] <photomatt> what's new in 2.1?
[17:26] <rboren> Page up front.
[17:26] <photomatt> numerous bug fixes
[17:26] <photomatt> page up front
[17:26] <gsnedders> miklb: sex, drugs and jazz.
[17:26] <photomatt> spell check
[17:26] <photomatt> performance enhancements
[17:26] <rboren> More AJAX
[17:26] <photomatt> page status
[17:26] <photomatt> yes, more ajax, fewer reloads
[17:27] <stevecooley> I gotta have more AJAX!
[17:27] <gsnedders> photomatt: does the spell check rely on TinyMCE?
[17:27] <io_error> Nice.
[17:27] <photomatt> bookmarks cleanup
[17:27] <photomatt> gsnedders: yes
[17:27] <photomatt> the interface is cleaner and more consistent
[17:27] <photomatt> more importers
[17:27] <photomatt> XML import/export
[17:27] <rboren> Blog privacy
[17:28] <photomatt> more hooks
[17:28] <io_error> More documentation?
[17:28] <skeltoac> I love me some hooks.
[17:28] <miklb> rboren: blog privacy?
[17:28] <gsnedders> and there aren't any browsers that support AppleSpell (in all NStextfields) and TinyMCE, so that question is a non-issue.
[17:29] <rboren> You can choose not to ping and to tell robots to go away.
[17:29] <gsnedders> next question: does it work in browsers with JavaScript disabled, or without AJAX support?
[17:29] <io_error> rboren: people actually wanted that?
[17:29] <rboren> Yes, a lot.
[17:29] <VxJasonxV> io_error, yes
[17:29] <VxJasonxV> Journals are "private things" (pah)
[17:29] <VxJasonxV> they should be using a hand written book, but whatever :P
[17:29] <rboren> Very popular feature on wp.com.
[17:30] <io_error> Never put private stuff on the Internet. It will find its way out.
[17:30] <photomatt> I think the pinging is a fairly big deal
[17:30] <photomatt> it gives us an install-option for people to be public with their blog or not
[17:30] <gsnedders> is it per-post?
[17:30] <rboren> No.
[17:30] <io_error> gsnedders: update services
[17:30] <photomatt> if/when we start to look at plugin stats through xml-rpc, it could be on the same trigger
[17:30] <ringmaster> Add pseudo-cron to that list of new features.
[17:30] <gsnedders> eg. choose a single post not to ping the servers
[17:31] <photomatt> ringmaster: yep, forgot about that
[17:31] <gsnedders> io_error: ?
[17:31] <io_error> gsnedders: technorati, pingomatic, etc.
[17:31] <gsnedders> io_error: yeah...
[17:31] <skeltoac> gsnedders: no, there are no per-post don't-do-generic-ping options
[17:33] <photomatt> ringmaster: do you think all that is enough to entice people to upgrade
[17:33] <ringmaster> Nope.
[17:33] <photomatt> also, is there any reason we shouldn't be offering those features to new installs?
[17:34] <gsnedders> back to my earlier question, any plans for a bug hunt?
[17:34] <photomatt> ringmaster: what would?
[17:34] <rboren> Spell check alone is enough.
[17:34] <ringmaster> We're talking about a big point release here. Something flashy and in-your-face would be nice on top of all of these under the hood features.
[17:34] <miklb> rboren: I would disagree on that
[17:34] <photomatt> don't underestimate the spell-check
[17:34] * gsnedders wonders why most UIs don't have spelling built in, using a dictionary shared by all apps.
[17:34] <skeltoac> spell-check can make or break nations.
[17:35] <rboren> We learned from wp.com that spell check is a deal breaker.
[17:35] <photomatt> ringmaster: what would be an example of flashy and in your face?
[17:35] <chocotofferts> pligg features would be nice
[17:35] <io_error> NO SPAM.
[17:35] <ringmaster> Shuttle.
[17:35] <miklb> from my experience in the forum, the page draft, and page sticky will be hailed
[17:35] <skeltoac> yes
[17:35] <photomatt> shuttle isn't terribly flashy
[17:35] <io_error> What the hell is shuttle?
[17:35] <ringmaster> It's enough to get people's attention.
[17:36] <skeltoac> Shuttle is a bunch of drawings.
[17:36] <photomatt> http://www.brokenkode.com/shuttle
[17:36] <ringmaster> It's something they can *see* versus something they'd have to be a coder to understand the value of.
[17:36] <rboren> Getting some elements of shuttle might be nice.
[17:36] <io_error> Oh, that.
[17:36] <ringmaster> Spell-check is nice, but I can't get too excited over something my word process has had since the dawn of time. It's like getting excited over a vaccuum cleaner.
[17:37] <skeltoac> That's in 2.2.
[17:37] <ringmaster> 2.2 - The Hoover
[17:37] <io_error> I want a kitchen sink.
[17:37] <gsnedders> and a dog.
[17:38] <skeltoac> I want a PHP script that rhymes and has a good plot.
[17:38] <ringmaster> No doubt, these are all great features that everyone will learn to love. Slowly. Eventually. Something that improves the UI will get people excited to try it out.
[17:38] <photomatt> I don't know that radical interface changes could, or should, happen every single release
[17:38] <miklb> question, 2.1 categories for bookmarks and posts are one in the same?
[17:38] <photomatt> miklb: yes
[17:38] <gsnedders> photomatt: no, they shouldn't.
[17:38] <gsnedders> photomatt: it's best to stick to something people know
[17:39] <io_error> photomatt: no, but people are likely to miss subtle changes.
[17:39] <photomatt> I also think it's a bit of a red herring
[17:39] <photomatt> some points:
[17:39] <photomatt> * wp is working for a huge number of people, and adoption has never been a problem we've had
[17:39] <io_error> well, not a BIG problem
[17:40] <photomatt> * interface changes should address areas where we know there are usability problems
[17:40] <photomatt> shuttle spent months arguing about whether to have tabs on the top-level menu
[17:40] <io_error> and it's still pretty ugly.
[17:40] <photomatt> but spent 0 time on the upload manager
[17:40] * io_error plays devil's advocate
[17:40] <photomatt> one of these has caused hundreds of support requests
[17:41] <photomatt> so I think if we do change the more aesthetic parts of the interface, we should give equal or more attention to the places where WP is functionally broken or really non-intuitive
[17:41] <photomatt> examine more underlying assumptions
[17:41] <ringmaster> And I don't have a problem with that. Let's do that and make that the flashy feature. And improve the look of the UI in the process.
[17:41] <io_error> And I want JavaScript pop-down menus. I have to click too much to get to what I want. :)
[17:42] <ringmaster> Darn right.
[17:42] <photomatt> haha
[17:42] <photomatt> okay, so all that would be nice
[17:42] <skeltoac> The mindreading algorithms are almost ready so you won't ever have to touch the mouse OR the keyboard.
[17:42] <photomatt> which brings us to two questions, who does it and when does it get done?
[17:42] <photomatt> I think in June we should focus on clearing out the 2.1 bug queue
[17:43] <photomatt> and get that release out
[17:43] <io_error> If I code something, it's going to be my #1 most desired feature :)
[17:43] <photomatt> we can't build a flashy feature house on a shaky foundation
[17:43] <gsnedders> as I've said twice before already, are we gonna have a bug hunt again?
[17:43] <photomatt> gsnedders: yes
[17:43] <io_error> Sure you can; it'll just fall apart :)
[17:43] <io_error> Or creak along like it has been.
[17:44] * Joins: Libertus
[17:44] <gsnedders> photomatt: when?
[17:44] <photomatt> gsnedders: chill!
[17:44] * gsnedders is relaxed...
[17:44] * gsnedders just uses one word replies when I'm bored/busy
[17:45] <photomatt> if you look at http://codex.wordpress.org/Version_1.6
[17:45] <photomatt> you'll see 2.1 includes almost everything we wanted to get in 2.0
[17:45] <io_error> Why was 1.6 called 2.0 in the first place?
[17:45] <Libertus> Sorry, I missed the start. What's the main feature that's coming in 2.1?
[17:45] <io_error> Libertus: spell check
[17:45] <ringmaster> Well, I am only addressing what I think will convince more people to upgrade. All of the featueres 2.1 has are swell, I just don't know that joe blogger gives a damn.
[17:45] <Libertus> w00t!
[17:46] <photomatt> ringmaster: you also said as much, and blogged as much, about 2.0
[17:46] <photomatt> why do you think 2.0 has been so widely adopted?
[17:46] <io_error> ringmaster: joe blogger will give a damn when all the plugins start becoming 2.1-only
[17:46] <Libertus> photomatt: It works
[17:46] <ringmaster> Just like they have for 2.0.
[17:47] <photomatt> okay, then we have nothing to worry about
[17:47] <ringmaster> Has nothing to do with 2.0 proper, just the adoption of new hooks by plugin devs. Which is why I recommended the upgrade way back when.
[17:47] <io_error> We have too many hooks already.
[17:47] <Libertus> Hooks are good. Need more hooks.
[17:48] * io_error points to duplicate hooks that do the same thing in different ways
[17:48] <skeltoac> io_error is urged to upload diffs to trac
[17:48] <Libertus> Theme hooking is a bit patchy - theme authors could do with some official guidance to make themes plugin-friendly
[17:48] <gsnedders> hooks allow things to be done without modding the code. good. multiple hooks doing the same thing. bad.
[17:48] <io_error> skeltoac: heh, I don't want to make that sort of decision. People's code will break.
[17:48] <photomatt> skeltoac: you can't respond to everyone with a code or shut up response ;)
[17:48] <skeltoac> aw!
[17:49] <io_error> Something to put on the table for 3.0, perhaps, to eliminate and consolidate duplicate hooks and other duplicate code
[17:49] <Libertus> Which hooks are duplicates?
[17:49] <skeltoac> Speaking of hooks, anybody want to talk about adding context to some filters?
[17:49] <io_error> Libertus: Compare get_settings() to get_bloginfo(), for instance.
[17:49] <photomatt> skeltoac: you can get context by looking at _SERVER
[17:49] * io_error constantly gets them mixed up
[17:50] <skeltoac> You still don't know where on the page or for what link that option was requested.
[17:50] <skeltoac> You only know which page you're on.
[17:51] <photomatt> if anything we should be making our underlying filter, option, etc systems simpler, not more complex
[17:51] <io_error> Amen!
[17:51] <Libertus> io_error: get_bloginfo() is a wrapper for get_settings() - it doesn't have its own hooks
[17:51] <io_error> Libertus: yes, and with completely different parameters. What's the point?
[17:51] <Libertus> Semantics
[17:52] <io_error> Libertus: It didn't work.
[17:52] <Libertus> One if for themes (get_bloginfo()) the other for developers and internals (get_settings())
[17:52] <io_error> Libertus: Which is which?
[17:52] <io_error> Libertus: And more importantly, WHY?
[17:52] <io_error> Libertus: One can easily serve both purposes.
[17:52] <Libertus> bloginfo is an abstraction of settings - to limit the interface to only those things a theme should be requesting
[17:53] <io_error> Libertus: how do you know what my theme needs to request? :)
[17:53] <photomatt> anyway, over the next month let's focus on stabilizing 2.1
[17:53] <Libertus> io_error: I don't
[17:53] <photomatt> which means clearing out - http://trac.wordpress.org/query?status=new&status=assigned&status=reopened&milestone=2.1
[17:53] <ringmaster> Well, I'm done bringing the party down. If the PTB don't agree, at least my conscience is clear for having offered my opinion. Is this keg on?
[17:53] <Libertus> Your theme can call get_settings, if you know what you're doing :)
[17:53] <photomatt> even if we decide to hold off the release for more flashy features
[17:53] <photomatt> we need to fix bugs before coding new stuff
[17:53] <photomatt> always
[17:53] <io_error> Libertus: Almost every theme - including the default one - calls get_settings().
[17:53] <Libertus> Oh well, you can lead a dev to APIs but you can't make them call
[17:54] <io_error> yes, but fixing bugs isn't sexy and doesn't get us the hot Linux women!
[17:54] <Libertus> Perhaps a "WordPress Janitors" team?
[17:54] <photomatt> I've also created a 2.2 milestone
[17:54] <photomatt> for pushing things off to the next release
[17:54] <io_error> Libertus: I see no good reason why there should be two completely different APIs that do exactly the same thing.
[17:54] <photomatt> if something is too broad
[17:54] <photomatt> like supporting dates prior to 1901
[17:54] <miklb> photomatt: so as a "joe blogger" how can one help with 2.1?
[17:54] <Libertus> io_error: They don't do exactly the same thing.
[17:55] <photomatt> miklb: well if you're comfortable with regular backups
[17:55] <photomatt> run it
[17:55] <io_error> Libertus: No, one is a subset of the other.
[17:55] <photomatt> and verify or invalidate tickets on the above link
[17:55] <io_error> More or less.
[17:55] <miklb> I am on a test blog, and so far so good
[17:55] <photomatt> there are a lot of tickets in trac that might be already fixed, or might not quite apply
[17:55] <miklb> OK. Mainly I want to be more familiar with features so when it's official, and beta even, I can better answer in the forums
[17:56] <Libertus> io_error: try get_settings('rss2_url')
[17:56] <mumbles> whats the latest ofical release?
[17:56] <mumbles> 2.0.2 ?
[17:56] <photomatt> yes, and 2.0.3 is coming out shortly
[17:57] <miklb> so when 2.0.3 is released, it will be termed "security fix"?
[17:57] <mumbles> ok - just wanted to know if i had missed updating my sandbox site
[17:57] <Libertus> I've noticed some activity on 2.0.3... like WP_SECRET
[17:58] <Libertus> Looks good to me, so unless 2.1 is imminent, I'll go forward with that
[17:58] <photomatt> miklb: yes
[17:59] <Libertus> Any major database schema changes planned for 2.1?
[17:59] <Libertus> I noticed the itegration of the link and post categories...
[17:59] <photomatt> Libertus: yes, please check out the SVN
[18:00] <photomatt> any other topics anyone would like to propose?
[18:00] <miklb> speaking of that, were would one start to look at how that's going to effect template tags?
[18:00] <miklb> er, where
[18:01] <Libertus> photomatt: Isn't there a summary somewhere?
[18:01] <photomatt> Libertus: sumarry of what?
[18:01] <photomatt> *summary
[18:01] <Libertus> The intended changes to 2.1... it's one thing to start at diffs, another thing entirely to know what the intent of the diffs is
[18:02] <photomatt> you can look at the open and closed tickets on the 2.1 milestone on trac
[18:02] <Libertus> I can't speak for others, but some kind of management or executive summary of what's coming up would be really useful
[18:02] <photomatt> read the transcript from earlier
[18:02] <io_error> Libertus: what about it?
[18:02] <photomatt> and see rboren's blog for a summary of changes thus far
[18:02] <Libertus> rboren.nu?
[18:03] <photomatt> no
[18:03] <photomatt> boren.nu
[18:03] <Libertus> Ta
[18:03] <photomatt> rboren: hey, rboren,nu isn't a porn site anymore
[18:04] <gsnedders> :D
[18:04] <Libertus> photomatt: Can you help me with a post ID, or title or something?
[18:04] <io_error> hehehehe
[18:04] <photomatt> Libertus: not during the meetup
[18:04] <Libertus> Oh thanks
[18:04] * Parts: Libertus ("Goodnight!"�)
[18:04] <photomatt> ?
[18:04] <photomatt> okay
[18:04] <chocotofferts> *registering io_error*
[18:04] <photomatt> any other topics?
[18:06] * io_error doesn't see any other topics
[18:06] <photomatt> alrighty
[18:06] <photomatt> </meetup>
[18:06] <photomatt> thanks everyone for coming out and spicing it up

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