IRC Meetups/2006/April/April05RawLog

[17:19] <photomatt> okay, should we meetup?
[17:19] <TonySt> torpedo|dog: Aah, I have Kubuntu running on the box next to me...
[17:19] <lastnode> photomatt, yes, please.
[17:19] <skeltoac> You're the one with the topic, photomatt :)
[17:19] <photomatt> I actually have to run :/
[17:19] <torpedo|dog> Give us a topic and we'll "tawk amongst yauselves"
[17:20] <photomatt> the timezone thing threw me off this week
[17:20] <photomatt> anyway the big news with themes
[17:20] <undersigned> :)
[17:20] <photomatt> is that we're going to move all of the themes we maintain on wordpress.com into a public repository
[17:20] <photomatt> with bug fixes, widgetification, etc
[17:20] <photomatt> hopefully that will prime the theme pump
[17:20] <mikelittle> Cool!
[17:20] <mumbles> meetup should be now
[17:20] <undersigned> neat
[17:21] <TonySt> ...pretty awesome
[17:21] <photomatt> in the same light of giving more stuff away, we CC-licensed our TOS of privacy policy, if anyone needs one
[17:21] <photomatt> better than paying an overpriced lawyer :)
[17:21] <mdawaffe|zilla> photomatt: using wp-themes.org?
[17:21] <mdawaffe|zilla> as the svn base, that is
[17:21] <photomatt> yes
[17:21] <photomatt> where else would we put them?
[17:21] <photomatt> I fixed up the plugin packaging system
[17:22] <photomatt> http://downloads.wordpress.org/plugin/
[17:22] <lastnode> photomatt, so themes.wordpress.org is going to contain themes submitted by authors, is it?
[17:22] <mdawaffe|zilla> well I wasn't sure where they were now, you see :) Yeah - saw that, cool
[17:22] <photomatt> it's now updated hourly
[17:22] <photomatt> and contains tags
[17:22] <photomatt> we're also tracking download stats more closely, so we'll have better stats for plugin authors
[17:22] <photomatt> the same system can be used for themes
[17:22] <torpedo|dog> Spiffy. The tags especially. Didn't seem Web 2.0 enough without tags ;)
[17:23] <photomatt> well, different sort of tags :)
[17:23] <lastnode> photomatt, is there going to be a quality assurance of sorts?
[17:23] <photomatt> though it is reading the readme.txt metadata into a database
[17:23] <lastnode> folksonomy ftw!
[17:23] <photomatt> lastnode: well for the themes we have on wp.com, they're already vetted and such
[17:23] <lastnode> photomatt, right, i mean user submitted.
[17:24] <photomatt> well, a flood of user submissions hasn't exactly been a problem with wp-themes.org :)
[17:24] <stevecooley> ok, so ... themes.wordpress.net .. what happens to that?
[17:24] <photomatt> well all us moving the wp.com themes into public SVN does
[17:24] <photomatt> is give us 30 or so vetted and debugged themes
[17:25] <photomatt> it doesn't actually address most of the problems we've been having
[17:25] <stevecooley> oic, not really related yet
[17:25] <lastnode> btw is this <meetup> or not, now?
[17:25] <photomatt> this is meetup
[17:26] <photomatt> but I have to run
[17:26] <undersigned> :0)
[17:26] <photomatt> you guys are welcome to continue the discussion though, I apologize for the scheduling error
[17:26] <stevecooley> so next week are we meeting up at this time minus one hour?
[17:26] <lastnode> 2am for me, thank you England
[17:27] <lastnode> photomatt, is Ryan or Andy going to facilitiate?
[17:27] <lastnode> *tate
[17:27] <photomatt> skeltoac? rboren ?
[17:27] <mdawaffe|zilla> Last week we decided on 2100 UTC, which is already one hour eariler (though us USA folk don't notice this because of DST)
[17:27] <skeltoac> Sure
[17:27] <lastnode> *are
[17:28] <skeltoac> Themes!
[17:28] * lastnode looks at what has been tabled
[17:28] <mumbles> themes seams to bee the only topic
[17:28] <stevecooley> OH, got it
[17:29] <skeltoac> Are there any remaining concerns about the only remaining topic?
[17:29] <rboren> Oooh, listen to the facilitating language.
[17:29] <skeltoac> Hey, I took an entire class in Robert's Rules of Order.
[17:30] <skeltoac> I think the book was red.
[17:30] <skeltoac> I digress.
[17:30] <mdawaffe|zilla> If we're using wp-themes.org as a base, anyone can checkin to it after getting the initial go ahead from photomatt, IIRC.
[17:30] <stevecooley> it was apparently also read
[17:30] <mdawaffe|zilla> I guess that's what already happens for plugins though.
[17:31] <mumbles> im confused as to whats going on,
[17:31] <skeltoac> I do not know or set that policy mdawaffe|zilla
[17:31] <mdawaffe|zilla> We'd need some notice for both saying that these aren't official WP dealies, use at own risk etc...
[17:31] <skeltoac> but I do know that it won't be a free-for-all
[17:31] <lastnode> my question is this - there was some discussion in #wordpress about the possibility of *anyone* putting up a wordpress theme site. apart from the wordpress* restriction in the domain, what else would there be?
[17:32] <skeltoac> wp-plugins.org doesn't let just anyone check in changes to any plugin, does it?
[17:32] <lastnode> (just to clarify, for everybody)
[17:32] <undersigned> im running a theme gallery, which seemed to be the topic at the last meetup
[17:32] <lastnode> there was _some_ finger pointing over the last week or so
[17:32] <mdawaffe|zilla> no - only the ones you own
[17:32] <lastnode> (i didn't make last week's meetup)
[17:32] <lastnode> mdawaffe|zilla, right, so there's a definite problem with hosting other peoples' themes?
[17:32] <lastnode> (again, i'm no theme author - this is for clarification)
[17:32] <undersigned> wasn't here though, read the logs.. and wasn't noticed about it
[17:33] <mdawaffe|zilla> lastnode: I'm more worried about people putting up insecure or malicious stuff on wp.org
[17:33] <mdawaffe|zilla> which can happen now, with wp-plugins.org
[17:33] <TonySt> I don't like the way wp-themes.org is run, to be frank
[17:33] <skeltoac> mdawaffe|zilla: are you able to commit changes to somebody else's plugin?
[17:33] <mdawaffe|zilla> skeltoac: no
[17:34] <mdawaffe|zilla> There *is* accountability
[17:34] <lastnode> mdawaffe|zilla, i see that problem. what im asking is, is there anything preventing a person from starting his/her own theme repo
[17:34] <lastnode> and hosting themes there
[17:34] <lastnode> it shouldn't be the case, but is there anything stopping him/her?
[17:34] <skeltoac> Okay, so it is as I thought: trusted people are given commit rights to appropriate segments of the repo.
[17:34] <TonySt> I'm not sure why there's not just a simple upload function for trusted users of wp-themes.org - I'm too lazy to send an email to Matt to get a theme up there
[17:35] <undersigned> as i said, im running a theme gallery
[17:35] <skeltoac> lastnode: We can't stop a person from distributing GPL material.
[17:35] <mdawaffe|zilla> skeltoac: "trusted" meaning, "sent an email to matt" to the best of my knowledge, matt may do some screenin, though, i don't know
[17:35] <undersigned> only thing preventing me is finger pointing
[17:35] <skeltoac> undersigned: is someone accusing you of wrong-doing?
[17:35] <undersigned> last meetup
[17:36] <lastnode> skeltoac, what i thought. i think this needs to be clarified further.
[17:36] <TonySt> undersigned's theme gallery has to be the best I've seen, and should be influential in any sort of theme hosting site
[17:36] <mumbles> last meetings logs http://codex.wordpress.org/IRC_Meetups/2006/March/March29RawLog <<
[17:36] * lastnode knows jack all about themes, and is just concerned about the undertalk the whole of this week
[17:37] <undersigned> and my little response: http://theundersigned.net/2006/03/wordpress-theme-park/
[17:38] <skeltoac> undersigned: I have not seen enough to give an opinion on the matter
[17:38] <mumbles> i thought the main problem last week was about adverts on the site .
[17:39] <stevecooley> yeah
[17:39] <stevecooley> essentially
[17:39] <skeltoac> Okay, let's back up here.
[17:39] <mumbles>
[18:04] <photomatt_lap> let's try to break it up, give me one moment
[17:39] <mumbles>
[18:04] <photomatt_lap> * scammers stealing content, setting up adsense theme sites
[17:39] <mumbles>
[18:04] <photomatt_lap> * maintaining the resource is time-intensive
[17:40] <skeltoac> We're talking about webdesignbook.net/themes
[17:41] <skeltoac> I'm looking at the site and I'm impressed.
[17:41] <skeltoac> I see a valuable service offered at no charge.
[17:41] <undersigned> first of all.. yes ive downloaded all the themes from themes.wordpress.net
[17:41] <undersigned> because there was a lot - simple as that
[17:42] <skeltoac> I see GPL work (right?)
[17:42] <undersigned> in one place
[17:42] <undersigned> yea
[17:42] <skeltoac> Okay, so you have not done anything wrong.
[17:42] <skeltoac> Some people are just suspicious, that's all.
[17:42] <stevecooley> legally
[17:42] <TonySt> or morally
[17:42] <undersigned> well.. at least the upload/integritychecker checks for the word GPL in style.css
[17:43] <undersigned> second thing - ive downloaded and uploaded many more themes than that
[17:43] <skeltoac> The apparent originator of the concern, Podz, isn't here to answer.
[17:43] <undersigned> third - i check feeds from tons of sites every day and make sure that the themes are updated to newest versions
[17:43] <skeltoac> undersigned, have you received any take-down requests?
[17:43] <stevecooley> Maybe you could put your code base up on themes.wordpress.net or something
[17:43] <undersigned> and last but not least, i try to keep up with all theme related news, guides and articles
[17:44] <skeltoac> I see no reason he should open his code base.
[17:44] <stevecooley> you clearly care, so why not be official and run under the domain of the project
[17:44] <undersigned> competition is healthy ?
[17:44] * Joins: EduardoE
[17:44] <rboren> Indeed it is.
[17:44] <skeltoac> undersigned: have you received any take-down requests?
[17:44] <mumbles> so basically undersigned's site is a theme directly which offers help on the themes that are up on it
[17:44] <undersigned> how do they look at ads, fx.
[17:45] <mumbles> which is a nice reserch when your building a theme.
[17:45] <undersigned> and can they handle it if i write anything negative on the site
[17:45] <TonySt> Personally, I've seen sites that not only have t.o.n.s of ads on their site and rip my themes and put a linkback to their site in the footer.
[17:46] * Joins: gsnedders
[17:46] <skeltoac> undersigned: have you received any take-down requests?
[17:46] <lastnode> i think wp is too quick to ask for everything under an "official" domain
[17:46] <undersigned> TonySt: well, at least the file structure and integrity in the zip files downloadable from the site is identical to the originals
[17:46] <undersigned> skeltoac: nope
[17:46] <skeltoac> TonySt: It may be reprehensible but it's fair play.
[17:46] <undersigned> skeltoac: only positive response
[17:46] <TonySt> undersigned: That's something I like
[17:47] <lastnode> the whole point of a GPLed piece of code is that it can spawn an unofficial community, isn't it?
[17:47] <undersigned> lastnode: exactly
[17:47] <skeltoac> undersigned: excellent! so don't worry about a little paranoia. Negativity is part of popularity. Smile :)
[17:47] <undersigned> first thing on my mind is communism - sorry
[17:47] <TonySt> skeltoac: Yes, that's fair play, but I'm afraid it's not long before they _replace_ my credit with theirs, and that's against the license
[17:47] <lastnode> hey don't diss communism!
[17:48] <undersigned> skeltoac: i wont take it down :)
[17:48] <skeltoac> TonySt: I don't deal in speculation and this isn't a Tom Cruise movie.
[17:48] <undersigned> im currently doing a better snapshot service and better theme uploading system
[17:48] <skeltoac> Can't prosecute anyone for "future crimes" ;-)
[17:48] <undersigned> and a better integrity testing
[17:48] <lastnode> if at all, i think what wp.org should do is /invite undersigned to develop the "official" repo
[17:48] <TonySt> skeltoac: Aah - I was wondering what you were talking about there for a second.. :-)
[17:49] <skeltoac> Okay, so is this bit about undersigned being a dirty scammer behind us now?
[17:49] <lastnode> then he can make a personal decision based on what he sees fit
[17:49] <undersigned> and since launch about a month ago 9000 themes has been downloaded, so it is used
[17:49] <lastnode> righto, andy
[17:49] <lastnode> that's behind us
[17:49] <mikelittle> TonySt: If your license is GPL, then it is not against the license. They cannot change the copyright notice.
[17:50] <undersigned> thanks, just want to clear my back .. kinda
[17:50] <TonySt> mikelittle: ...if it's cc-attrib?
[17:50] <skeltoac> undersigned: just rock on, man. :)
[17:50] <mikelittle> Different again.
[17:50] <stevecooley> This is all fine, just don't be such a jerk about it when people are pissed when you don't pay proper respect
[17:50] <lastnode> TonySt, GPL requires attribution by default
[17:50] <skeltoac> Was there another issue regarding themes and centralized hosting of such?
[17:50] <lastnode> respect?
[17:51] <mikelittle> Last node: No it doesn't. It requires that copy right notices remain intact..
[17:51] <TonySt> stevecooley: ?
[17:51] <lastnode> mikelittle, yeah, sorry, what i meant in retrospect :)
[17:51] <mdawaffe|zilla> skeltoac: last week's discussion also sparked renewed interest in a wp.org theme repo (speaking of healthy competitiion), but nothing really got decided about it
[17:52] <skeltoac> mdawaffe|zilla: photomatt made mention of that about 30 minutes ago.
[17:52] <mdawaffe|zilla> skeltoac: I recall. I meant more along the lines of pleasant GUI and automatic validation and such. Perhaps that's already in the works.
[17:53] * Quits: gsnedders
[17:53] <skeltoac> Automatic validation is little more than a twinkle in your eye, unless there is some code I never saw.
[17:53] <skeltoac> (my eye, too)
[17:53] * TonySt is now known as TonySt|away
[17:54] <lastnode> skeltoac, something which the wp admins should be looking at is convincing undersigned to work with you guys (and maybe share his code) for an official repo ;-)
[17:54] <undersigned> validation, like w3c validation?
[17:54] <lastnode> he's clearly doing something right with the repo
[17:54] <mdawaffe|zilla> I can't talk. Validation meaning making sure hooks are there and such, not XHTML validation. Anyway, basic stuff is simple, real stuff is nigh impossible
[17:54] <skeltoac> Validating the markup is trivial.
[17:54] <undersigned> oh yeh
[17:54] <skeltoac> Validating the source code is a mean task.
[17:55] <mdawaffe|zilla> skeltoac: yes - that's what I meant. I'm sure you wp.com people have been over this many times.
[17:55] <lastnode> skeltoac, isn't it just searching for the relevant hooks? oh i guess you have to make sure they're in their right places as well
[17:55] <undersigned> hmm at least files could be searched for 5-10 critical templatetags
[17:55] <mdawaffe|zilla> gotta run
[17:55] <undersigned> and file-structure could be checked
[17:55] <undersigned> and the theme could be run on a wp test install and see if it creates any php errors
[17:55] <skeltoac> lastnode: not only that, but ensuring the theme uses the API properly, works on all supported releases, doesn't do things it shouldn't with the db or filesystem...
[17:56] <undersigned> but the worst part really, is that many newer themes are to be configured - and really hasn't got any preconfiguration
[17:56] <lastnode> skeltoac, that, as you say, is nigh impossible
[17:56] <mdawaffe|zilla> and send_me_all_your_private_info()...
[17:56] <skeltoac> and adding widget support and CSS contingencies that weren't known to the designer
[17:56] <lastnode> mdawaffe|zilla, yeah that's a biggie
[17:56] * Quits: mdawaffe|zilla ("Chatzilla 0.9.72
[17:56] <undersigned> wow what a project
[17:56] <undersigned> would be tough
[17:57] <skeltoac> Yes, it's part of the reason WP.com doesn't add ten themes every day.
[17:57] <lastnode> anyway im out guys
[17:57] <lastnode> night andy
[17:57] <lastnode> night everyone
[17:57] <skeltoac> night lastnode
[17:57] * Quits: lastnode (Client Quit�)
[17:57] <undersigned> i oughta go to sleep aswell
[17:57] <skeltoac> So, the themes repo will have vetted themes and non-vetted themes, I imagine
[17:58] <skeltoac> but I'm not in charge of setting all that up.
[17:58] <undersigned> on my site i try to make the most downloaded or voted themes more visible than others
[17:58] <skeltoac> Give it a few more days or weeks and see what Matt comes up with.
[17:58] <undersigned> and make the users sort out the bad one, so to speak
[17:58] <mumbles> put it on the topic for next meetup
[17:59] <skeltoac> undersigned, I do not know what the vision is for the wp-themes.org UI. Yours is pretty sweet.
[18:01] <skeltoac> Any other discussion on this before we call it done?
[18:01] <undersigned> nah
[18:01] <skeltoac> Super.
[18:01] <skeltoac> Any other discussions at all for this meetup?
[18:02] <undersigned> who do you think is the cutest? matt or ryan?
[18:02] <rboren> Definitely not me.
[18:02] <rboren> I'm much to dangerous to be cute.
[18:02] <rboren> Yarrrr.
[18:02] <undersigned> haha
[18:03] <skeltoac> ryan declares no contest, matt wins by default.
[18:03] <skeltoac> Any other discussions?
[18:03] <PotterSys> is Codex down right now?
[18:03] <mumbles> whos going to put this up on wp-meetup.org ?
[18:04] <PotterSys> mumbles: yours truly
[18:04] <mumbles> cool. just asking in case i had to find my wiki login details
[18:04] <skeltoac> Main_Page just gave me a 500
[18:04] <skeltoac> and then a 200
[18:04] <skeltoac> Seems fine
[18:05] <skeltoac> Intermittent 500's
[18:06] <PotterSys> ok, thanks
[18:06] <skeltoac> BBQ is waiting, people. Anything else? :)
[18:07] <mumbles> nothing form me
[18:07] <undersigned> hmm 0:06 here
[18:08] <skeltoac> Okay, </meetup>

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